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Plus features: Announcing the SecurePRO™ program
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:59
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Worth repeating Dec 13, 2016

writeaway wrote:

This is what I meant when I said no one should be stigmatized for opting out of verification. Just leave all reference(s) to verification off the profiles pages of those who don't buy the super package and/or those who don't want to be part of the securepro product.


That's what I am trying to explain, too. This would be the fair, logical approach, and it would end this discussion, but for some reason, Henry doesn't understand it, or doesn't agree.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:59
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Repeat response to Katalin Dec 13, 2016

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
Henry Dotterer wrote:
Since the only way to know that is to see how people use it, as I said, and as you asked, I'll watch and consider.

When you introduced the verified identity feature (that little checkmark) you did not wait, watch and consider how it was going to be used.

I don't know why you would say that. Of course we did. We always do.

Wait and see how it is used will give you NO information about those who DO NOT WANT (or not able) to use it.

I would say that you're wrong about that, and it crosses my mind that you would only say that because you have never done this. In my experience, watching and seeing how something is used in practice is the only way to make correct decisions about services. Though you say we will not, the fact is that we will learn more about the importance (or lack thereof) of the program, we'll gain insight from and into those who use it and those who don't, and so on. (Anticipating your challenge to that, may I simply ask in advance that you forgive me if I am no more eager to take time explaining that to you, than you might be to try to justify the way you choose to handle terminology management or some other aspect of your personal profession and practices. Hopefully it will suffice to simply say, "it is just how we do it.")

What I cannot comprehend, is that you listened to us when we requested the ability to completely hide the TM-Town link field in our profiles. (Thank you.) This SecurePro field has much more significant consequences then TM-Town (as it creates an impression about our reliability), yet, you are not listening.

With respect, Katalin, you are repeating the same arguments. I've heard you. I've answered. You don't like my response, but that doesn't mean I haven't listened. To repeat: I acknowledge the request. I'm going to evaluate it as we move forward.


 
Omar Osman
Omar Osman
Local time: 16:59
Member
Somali to English
+ ...
My point exactly Dec 13, 2016

writeaway wrote:

Proz is a commercial, for-profit website open to any and all. It sells services, products etc. On a the-more-you-pay, the-more-you-get basis. Just like any business/going concern.
We've seen the "PRO" product, where those who pay (and are deemed to be acceptable site citizens) are allowed to sport the Proz "PRO" badge. It has no official recognition off the site but allows people with it to stand out on various lists (the red P is hard to miss). They also have other perks, like access to the members-only PRO forum, where they are treated as valued members. That's fine - it's business and businesses need to attract and hang onto customers.
BUT
Imo, this latest "offer" goes way beyond anything that goes with a commercial website. By what authority does Proz feel they are entitled to sell/offer security of any kind, to post our names, phone numbers, nationalities etc. For whom? I find this abusive and extremely invasive. Proz is going to verify citizenship? How -by everyone dutifully and cheerfully sending in copies of their passports/birth certificates? And Proz plans to store all this personal data where? Or will it just be sold on or used to attract advertisers? All this has little or nothing to do with translation but a lot to do with keeping a file on customers: loyal, more loyal and most loyal of all.
This is fine for those who want to join and revel in being part of it all, but I agree with others who want to opt out but without being stigmatized for doing so. I've been on Proz since 2002, have paid for membership since 2003 but I am definitely not buying into any of this.



Many people reading these threads are deciding not to bother replying because it looks like a done deal, why even bother setting up a forum? Henry, don't assume that the reason only a handful of people have been vocal about this is because the majority don't mind or agree with this Secure Pro. As I mentioned on a previous forum about this, I have already got security screening with government agencies and they will not need or care about Secure Pro. This is what you said on the topic then, is anything changed?

"Plus subscriber privileges
Regarding the business model for this program, Plus subscribers benefit as follows: Any member or site user can enter SecurePRO™ data, but only Plus subscribers will have access to a new third-party identification verification service (to verify address, phone, etc.) In addition, being a Plus subscriber ensures that (1) visitors to your profile will be able to see your SecurePRO™ card, if you choose to show it, (2) ProZ.com business members will have bulk and search access to your SecurePRO™ card, if you choose to allow it, and (3) you will be able to reference the SecurePRO™ card of any colleague who chooses to show it. (Non-Plus subscribers can access only the SecurePRO™ cards of Plus subscribers.)"

A visible difference between the Plus and standard members!


[Edited at 2016-12-13 22:09 GMT]


 
Peter Leeflang
Peter Leeflang  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:59
Member (2014)
French to English
+ ...
Dumbfounded to be relegated to second class Proz citizenship because I cannot afford this Dec 14, 2016

I'm so dumbfounded about being relegated now to being a second rate Proz citizen, just because I cannot afford signing up for the Plus package that offers my customers (outsourcing agencies) my full security profile.

The suggestion that this profile can instead be hidden is a joke. The moment a translator does that the outsourcer will ask himself 'What has he got to hide?''. And the truth is I have nothing to hide for an outsourcer, but I cannot afford this extra service to him.
... See more
I'm so dumbfounded about being relegated now to being a second rate Proz citizen, just because I cannot afford signing up for the Plus package that offers my customers (outsourcing agencies) my full security profile.

The suggestion that this profile can instead be hidden is a joke. The moment a translator does that the outsourcer will ask himself 'What has he got to hide?''. And the truth is I have nothing to hide for an outsourcer, but I cannot afford this extra service to him.

My thought is very simple. Given that outsourcers have far larger budgets than most independent translators, they are likely to be able to afford a plus package themselves to fund verification of the partners (translators) they work with. Therefore I think they should pay for it. And if they choose instead not to pay, they will have elected the extra risk with coercion.

No one should be coerced in transactions, but this sounds just like that. The alternative is that it puts many out of business unjustly, since most would love to be verified but not at a major cost. Now we are forced to pony up or be out of business.

Most likely Proz will also offer outsourcers a search facility to filter any translator who is not signed up with 'Plus'. That will make us non-plussers invisible.

I'm all for more security, but not this way.

What we actually need is to have the OUTSOURCERS thoroughly verified both for identity and payment practices. For that I would be prepared to pay, as it would be a kind of insurance that I get paid (on time), which is becoming a major issue nowadays. That would save me lots of time and money, this does not.

It does not get me more business. It just means I can only keep the existing business if I comply with forking over the extra membership fee.

Additionally, this is also not in my interest because it puts many of my fellow translators out of business, while I need them as colleagues here. They are market makers and make this site a one stop shopping site. Most of them are not cheaters. If they get chased away this way then the site is no 'one stop shopping' site anymore and my customers (outsourcers), especially the smaller and mid-size ones, will go look elsewhere for their translators. It happened before with a site like Ebay. Their one-stop shopping site became a 'swiss cheese' shopping site instead.

Peter
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:59
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Excellent point Dec 14, 2016

fmlinguistics wrote:

......
What we actually need is to have the OUTSOURCERS thoroughly verified both for identity and payment practices. For that I would be prepared to pay...



Excellent point, Peter. I would be happy to pay extra for something like that. How about it, Henry? Unreliable, time-wasting outsourcers are my biggest problem.

In relation to another point made by Peter: I really do feel I'm being chased away by this reconfiguring of what Proz offers to translators. Looking around for other options.

[Edited at 2016-12-14 09:21 GMT]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:59
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
What sort of screening, Omar? Dec 14, 2016

Omar Osman wrote:
This is what you said on the topic then, is anything changed?

"Plus subscriber privileges
Regarding the business model for this program, Plus subscribers benefit as follows: Any member or site user can enter SecurePRO™ data, but only Plus subscribers will have access to a new third-party identification verification service (to verify address, phone, etc.) In addition, being a Plus subscriber ensures that (1) visitors to your profile will be able to see your SecurePRO™ card, if you choose to show it, (2) ProZ.com business members will have bulk and search access to your SecurePRO™ card, if you choose to allow it, and (3) you will be able to reference the SecurePRO™ card of any colleague who chooses to show it. (Non-Plus subscribers can access only the SecurePRO™ cards of Plus subscribers.)"

This is accurate.

I have already got security screening with government agencies and they will not need or care about Secure Pro.

Are you able to share what sort of security screening you have received? Is it a credential? Would you care to display the fact that you have been screened, along with possibly, third-party verification of that? This is the sort of information that is being treated in the program.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:59
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
I would encourage you not to worry this much, fmlinguistics Dec 14, 2016

fmlinguistics wrote:

I'm so dumbfounded about being relegated now to being a second rate Proz citizen, just because I cannot afford signing up for the Plus package that offers my customers (outsourcing agencies) my full security profile.

Hi fmlinguistics. Thanks for posting. I would encourage you not to worry so much. You are not a second rate ProZ.com member, no one is, and the impact of this program on you, if you choose not to participate, is probably not as great as you seem to be fearing.

The suggestion that this profile can instead be hidden is a joke. The moment a translator does that the outsourcer will ask himself 'What has he got to hide?''. And the truth is I have nothing to hide for an outsourcer, but I cannot afford this extra service to him.

I would say that you don't have to worry so much. It is not like any of this stuff happens abruptly. This thread is very similar, in terms of points being made, to the thread in which translator feedback (WWA) was introduced. We had some members ready to use it, people saying it couldn't be done (impossible to manage, not ProZ.com's place, privacy laws won't permit it, etc.), some saying they wanted no part of it, and some who wanted to not take part but who were afraid that it would immediately put them at an irreparable disadvantage. In fact, the program was instituted and is now used -- and there is every indication that the program has been useful for those who have opted to be involved -- but there was never a watershed event where those who opted out of WWA suddenly stopped being viable at ProZ.com. We have a very diverse community, filled with people who exercise judgment and put the many ProZ.com features in perspective. And a person with just the right skills for a given job is attractive enough that clients will evaluate with discernment. This program is not going to work like the flipping of a switch.

My thought is very simple. Given that outsourcers have far larger budgets than most independent translators, they are likely to be able to afford a plus package themselves to fund verification of the partners (translators) they work with. Therefore I think they should pay for it. And if they choose instead not to pay, they will have elected the extra risk with coercion.

I believe I said this in the video, but we do plan to offer something to LSPs in connection with the SecurePRO program.

No one should be coerced in transactions, but this sounds just like that. The alternative is that it puts many out of business unjustly, since most would love to be verified but not at a major cost. Now we are forced to pony up or be out of business.

We're not trying to coerce. And we are being very, very value-oriented here. I'm trying very hard to get you guys a lot, for a little! The cost differential for everything we are putting in Plus (not just this program) was just $40 in the introductory campaign. (Just one of the items in the package, CafeTran, costs 80 euros normally. I challenge anyone to put together a package with what the Plus package includes for $40. You will not be able to do it.)

And by the way, for someone who has been paying biannually, as you may have, the cost of the Plus package is actually lower, on an annual basis, that what you have been paying. If you are really interested in this program and it is the upfront cost that is the limiting factor, I will see what we can do about that. So in fact you are looking at getting more for less.

Most likely Proz will also offer outsourcers a search facility to filter any translator who is not signed up with 'Plus'. That will make us non-plussers invisible.

Yes, this capability will exist, but realistically, no, it is not going to make you invisible. It just doesn't work that way here. The most frequently used search parameters, outside of language, are used maybe 10% of the time, and that is after years. Which is to say that the effect of changes made here is very incremental.

What we actually need is to have the OUTSOURCERS thoroughly verified both for identity and payment practices. For that I would be prepared to pay, as it would be a kind of insurance that I get paid (on time), which is becoming a major issue nowadays.

The goal of this program is to better assure confidentiality. By its nature, it can be successful only with the involvement of both LSPs and freelancers. (And, at least by extension, end clients.)

It does not get me more business.

I don't know about that. If this program is successful, apart from the contribution to the industry in general, one outcome is that more work will come to ProZ.com members overall. Those who take part in the program will be best positioned to benefit from any increase in client traffic related to the program.

Additionally, this is also not in my interest because it puts many of my fellow translators out of business, while I need them as colleagues here. They are market makers and make this site a one stop shopping site. Most of them are not cheaters. If they get chased away this way then the site is no 'one stop shopping' site anymore and my customers (outsourcers), especially the smaller and mid-size ones, will go look elsewhere for their translators.

These forum threads have a way of snowballing in their sentiments, but let's retain perspective here. What we have done is launch an optional program focused on better assuring confidentiality in translation. Is it really reasonable to expect a program with this objective to lead to putting anyone out of business, or to the demise of the site? The much more likely outcomes are that (1) it doesn't take hold, or (2) it leads to an incrementally healthier and more mature community and industry overall. Obviously we'll be shooting for the latter!

That will be my last word for a little while. The "sounding board" has begun to form, and details of implementation are being discussed among several of those who see value in the program. If anyone has additional questions please feel free to ask them here. My involvement in this thread will decrease overall, but I will check in from time to time.


 
Omar Osman
Omar Osman
Local time: 16:59
Member
Somali to English
+ ...
Companies that require security screening will pay for it Dec 15, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:


Are you able to share what sort of security screening you have received? Is it a credential? Would you care to display the fact that you have been screened, along with possibly, third-party verification of that? This is the sort of information that is being treated in the program.



I done 3 ad hock jobs for 2 different government agencies. I provided them with passport photocopy, proof of address and on the case of one agency I had to go to their Embassy to give my documents and be assessed by their security officer. Also, I was DBS checked (Disclosure and Barring Service) on behalf of a UK company that had contracts with the Government (guess what? they paid all the expenses), even with that I still had to go to the Government office and do the job in their offices. I don't have problems when my client and the government keep my information (they already do!). I am a private person, that is the reason I don't even have a photo on my profile since I joined this site and I don't feel confident of leaving my private data to a private company wigh the hacking going on at the moment and for what?
In my case, in 17 years only 2 translation agencies requied a proper security screeneing. Consider that my language combination is very sought-after by Governments in the anti terror campaign. Also I signed less then 10 NDA in total; all the other companies and government agencies I work for wouldn't care less. In my opinion this security requirement is a myth. 90% of companies only want cheap translators, it's simple as that.


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:59
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
Some important questions Dec 15, 2016

Dear Henry,

Before you stop contributing to this thread, please would you answer some important questions about the SecurePRO card which are not covered in your videos and announcements on the subject.

1. Exactly what forms of identification/validation of members' information will be required? e.g. copy of passport, ID card, driving licence, utility bill bearing the person's address, income tax declaration, birth certificate ?
2. To whom will they have to be sent?
... See more
Dear Henry,

Before you stop contributing to this thread, please would you answer some important questions about the SecurePRO card which are not covered in your videos and announcements on the subject.

1. Exactly what forms of identification/validation of members' information will be required? e.g. copy of passport, ID card, driving licence, utility bill bearing the person's address, income tax declaration, birth certificate ?
2. To whom will they have to be sent? Who will keep them? Where? You refer to "third parties" undertaking these functions, but you don't name them.
3. Will members be able to check that the information held concerning them has been correctly recorded and to correct any errors?

A clear answer to these questions will enable me (and doubtless others) to decide whether to go for the Plus Package or to remain a humble standard member.

Thanks in advance,
Jenny
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:59
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Omar Dec 15, 2016

Omar Osman wrote:
I done 3 ad hock jobs for 2 different government agencies. I provided them with passport photocopy, proof of address and on the case of one agency I had to go to their Embassy to give my documents and be assessed by their security officer. Also, I was DBS checked (Disclosure and Barring Service) on behalf of a UK company that had contracts with the Government (guess what? they paid all the expenses), even with that I still had to go to the Government office and do the job in their offices.

Thanks for sharing this. Having experienced these processes, I am sure you can understand how on some jobs, screening can require time and expense on the part of both freelancer and client. This program would potentially serve to streamline that to some degree.

I don't have problems when my client and the government keep my information (they already do!). I am a private person, that is the reason I don't even have a photo on my profile since I joined this site and I don't feel confident of leaving my private data to a private company wigh the hacking going on at the moment and for what?

It is wise to ask this question, I have no disagreement with you on that.

Also I signed less then 10 NDA in total; all the other companies and government agencies I work for wouldn't care less.

One of the questions we asked in one of the surveys probed this issue a little bit. A rhetorical question: Have you ever done a job where there was no NDA, but maybe there should have been? It seems that many translators have had that experience.

In my opinion this security requirement is a myth. 90% of companies only want cheap translators, it's simple as that.

I think I know what you mean by this, and I understand the sentiment, but you seem to be a professional person (I have seen other posts), so I imagine that you might also acknowledge that requirements vary from job to job. On some, confidentiality is not an issue. On others, it is. And basically no one -- end client, LSP or freelancer -- wants to be responsible for disclosing someone's confidential information.

The SecurePRO program is about reducing the risk of that, together, as an industry. It is a topic where the interests of industry parties are not in conflict, but in alignment.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:59
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Responses to Jenny Dec 15, 2016

Jenny Forbes wrote:

Dear Henry,

Before you stop contributing to this thread, please would you answer some important questions about the SecurePRO card which are not covered in your videos and announcements on the subject.

1. Exactly what forms of identification/validation of members' information will be required? e.g. copy of passport, ID card, driving licence, utility bill bearing the person's address, income tax declaration, birth certificate ?

The type of verification that is available, and documents that can be used, varies from country to country. The decision of which information to provide can be made on an item by item basis. Anything someone is not comfortable sharing can be left out.

2. To whom will they have to be sent? Who will keep them? Where? You refer to "third parties" undertaking these functions, but you don't name them.

ProZ.com will not be storing new sensitive data fields in connection with this program. As you may have noticed, we are offering verification of existing fields such as email addresses and phone numbers, and for that we use our own database, but for more sensitive information, we will be working with companies that specialize in this.

As security has become a more important topic in various industries over recent years, there are a number of companies that have sprung up around the world to support identity verification. Banks rely on these companies, so they are companies that have been able to demonstrate solid security capabilities. Because data and policies differ country by country, and because some services serve certain geographies better than others, we will not be limited to working with more than one partner; it is likely that we will be working mainly with two, one in Europe and one in the US, and maybe with a third for more difficult locations. The name of the pertinent service will be disclosed to the individual when that individual is considering obtaining verification.

3. Will members be able to check that the information held concerning them has been correctly recorded and to correct any errors?

Yes. That is something that would happen between you and the third-party service. Basically, the data goes to them, and they report to us whether or not they have been able to verify it. So ProZ.com would not have the information from a person's national identity card, for example, but instead would have been informed that the national identity card had been verified. (In our database will be a record that so-and-so ID verification company reported successful verification of the national identity card on a certain date.)

A clear answer to these questions will enable me (and doubtless others) to decide whether to go for the Plus Package or to remain a humble standard member.

Thank you for considering!


 
sindy cremer
sindy cremer
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
@Henry Dec 15, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

...requirements vary from job to job. On some, confidentiality is not an issue. On others, it is. And basically no one -- end client, LSP or freelancer -- wants to be responsible for disclosing someone's confidential information.

The SecurePRO program is about reducing the risk of that, together, as an industry. It is a topic where the interests of industry parties are not in conflict, but in alignment.


Henry, so what you are saying is that you believe that

a badge

- issued by a non-accredited website

- which shows that someone’s name, phone no. and whatever else might come up have been verified by an (as yet unknown) third party (in an as yet unknown way), and

- on the flip-side has a confidentiality-related statement of choice from the bearer

is going to reduce the risk of confidential information being disclosed?

Honestly?

And this is supposed to be one of the major selling points in the Plus Package?


[Edited at 2016-12-15 17:55 GMT]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:59
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Please watch the video Dec 15, 2016

Sindy Cremer wrote:
Henry Dotterer wrote:

...requirements vary from job to job. On some, confidentiality is not an issue. On others, it is. And basically no one -- end client, LSP or freelancer -- wants to be responsible for disclosing someone's confidential information.

The SecurePRO program is about reducing the risk of that, together, as an industry. It is a topic where the interests of industry parties are not in conflict, but in alignment.


Henry, so what you are saying is that you believe that

a badge

- issued by a non-accredited website

- which shows that someone’s name, phone no. and whatever else might come up have been verified by an (as yet unknown) third party (in an as yet unknown way), and

- on the flip-side has a confidentiality-related statement of choice from the bearer

is going to reduce the risk of confidential information being disclosed?

Honestly?

And this is supposed to be one of the major selling points in the Plus Package?

It is not a major "selling point", but it is a major initiative.

If you have not, please watch the introductory video, Sindy. The program objectives, and the reason for this starting point, are spelled out there.


 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 09:59
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Identity screening, TM town and disclosing confidential information Dec 15, 2016

Dear Henry,

There were so many questions about this program that you may have missed my question I asked some weeks ago.

You wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:
. And basically no one -- end client, LSP or freelancer -- wants to be responsible for disclosing someone's confidential information.


There are major contradictions between TM-Town and the SecurePro program. Professional translators with specializations (like medical, legal, business etc.) cannot share, upload, disclose their TMs. It was really astonishing to see medical translators with many TMs uploaded. And who verifies whether those TMs were really translated by that specific translator? What was the reaction of LSPs or end clients about TM-Town knowing that their TMs may have been shared? How can you promote TM town meanwhile you are also promoting to keep confidentiality?
And what does identity screening have to do with keeping information confidential?
Those agencies/end clients who are concerned about confidentiality send NDAs, but having a SecurePro badge doesn't mean that the person will keep information confidential.

Katalin


 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:59
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Right but... Dec 15, 2016

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Professional translators with specializations (like medical, legal, business etc.) cannot share, upload, disclose their TMs. It was really astonishing to see medical translators with many TMs uploaded.


I have bought the plus package and hidden TMtown, I have no intention to disclose my legal TMs, I can't, but I think we can refrain from using a feature of the package if not suitable. In my case TMtown is not an option and I will not use it.


 
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