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Plus features: Announcing the SecurePRO™ program
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 12:15
English to Hungarian
+ ...
But the 2 are within the same program Dec 15, 2016

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Professional translators with specializations (like medical, legal, business etc.) cannot share, upload, disclose their TMs. It was really astonishing to see medical translators with many TMs uploaded.


I have bought the plus package and hidden TMtown, I have no intention to disclose my legal TMs, I can't, but I think we can refrain from using a feature of the package if not suitable. In my case TMtown is not an option and I will not use it.



Hi Angie,

I hear you. But how can a program promote TM-Town (where someone breaches confidentiality by uploading more and more TMs) and SecurePro program at the same time? Also everybody knows that if someone's identity is screened it doesn't mean that the person (whose name is XX and who lives in XY screened by a third party) will keep any confidentiality related rules. It just means that his name is XX and lives in XY and that's all.

Katalin


 
sindy cremer
sindy cremer
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
hear, hear Dec 15, 2016

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

And what does identity screening have to do with keeping information confidential?
Those agencies/end clients who are concerned about confidentiality send NDAs, but having a SecurePro badge doesn't mean that the person will keep information confidential.

Katalin


exactly the point I made in my response on page 3, and which Henry failed to provide an answer to.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Responses to TM-Town Dec 15, 2016

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Dear Henry,

There were so many questions about this program that you may have missed my question I asked some weeks ago.

You wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:
. And basically no one -- end client, LSP or freelancer -- wants to be responsible for disclosing someone's confidential information.


... And what does identity screening have to do with keeping information confidential?
Those agencies/end clients who are concerned about confidentiality send NDAs, but having a SecurePro badge doesn't mean that the person will keep information confidential.

It sounds like you may not have had a chance to view the introductory video. While creating the presentation I tried to address questions raised by you and others in the thread. If you have watched the video and still do not understand the connection between verified identity and the objective of better assuring confidentiality in translation, please let me know.

There are major contradictions between TM-Town and the SecurePro program... How can you promote TM town meanwhile you are also promoting to keep confidentiality?

It seems to me that there is no conflict between the SecurePRO program and the TM-Town service, in fact it stands to reason that in encouraging clarification of the confidentiality requirements applicable for a given job, the SecurePRO program would tend to support the interests of any cloud-based service, including TM-Town. You are clever, Katalin--if you think about it, maybe you can understand how this could be so? (If not, I'm happy to expand upon this viewpoint if you would like.)


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
@Sindy Dec 15, 2016

Sindy Cremer wrote:

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

And what does identity screening have to do with keeping information confidential?
Those agencies/end clients who are concerned about confidentiality send NDAs, but having a SecurePro badge doesn't mean that the person will keep information confidential.

exactly the point I made in my response on page 3, and which Henry failed to provide an answer to.

Sindy, I don't want to appear unfriendly, I appreciate your many years of membership, but I have replied to you personally a few times now in the thread, and the nature of your postings makes me think that you may not have watched the introductory video. I know it is a bit long (26 minutes), and I know you may be busy with projects, but that video represents my best effort to thoroughly convey the objectives of the program. If you are going to take an active role in the discussion here, watching the video would be the place to start. Thank you.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Right, Angie! Dec 15, 2016

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Professional translators with specializations (like medical, legal, business etc.) cannot share, upload, disclose their TMs. It was really astonishing to see medical translators with many TMs uploaded.


I have bought the plus package and hidden TMtown, I have no intention to disclose my legal TMs, I can't, but I think we can refrain from using a feature of the package if not suitable. In my case TMtown is not an option and I will not use it.

Exactly. TM-Town is for use with content that is suitable for loading into TM-Town. Same with any other cloud service, like Dropbox, Gmail, etc. If anything, the SecurePRO program seeks to shine a light on these issues, and maybe encourage clarification of whether or not using such services is permissible for a given job, in cases where such clarification may currently be lacking.

Thanks, Angie.


 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 12:15
English to Hungarian
+ ...
I'll watch the video ... Dec 15, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

It sounds like you may not have had a chance to view the introductory video. While creating the presentation I tried to address questions raised by you and others in the thread. If you have watched the video and still do not understand the connection between verified identity and the objective of better assuring confidentiality in translation, please let me know.

It seems to me that there is no conflict between the SecurePRO program and the TM-Town service, in fact it stands to reason that in encouraging clarification of the confidentiality requirements applicable for a given job, the SecurePRO program would tend to support the interests of any cloud-based service, including TM-Town. You are clever, Katalin--if you think about it, maybe you can understand how this could be so? (If not, I'm happy to expand upon this viewpoint if you would like.)


Thank you for your answer, Henry.

Personally I would have been ready to buy a Pro service for screening and kicking out agencies from the site that have appalling project management practices (including but not limited to not paying, or paying late, looking for best rate translators, looking for best translators to attract clients but then hiring low quality/low rate translators instead, using CVs for fraudulent purposes, trying to use test translations as real jobs, etc.). We translators are the ones who are exposed to scammers and agencies with the above unacceptable business practices.
I don't think that clients' (LSPs or end clients) major concern would be confidentiality if they have their own (usually pretty strict) NDAs. But the major concern in this industry is a trend that is producing greedy agencies with unacceptable business and project management practices. If there was a Pro service where screened PRO clients with screened good business and project management practices who also pay decent rates would be matched with PRO translators I wouldn't think for a minute whether to buy the PRO service or not.

Honestly I admit I haven't watched the video, but I will. And if I don't find answers to my questions, I'll let you know.

Katalin


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:15
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Simple question Dec 15, 2016

Why do I need this? I still don't understand what it's for. I don't want to watch a video- just tell me in a few words.

[Edited at 2016-12-15 22:07 GMT]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Katalin Dec 15, 2016

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Personally I would have been ready to buy a Pro service for screening and kicking out agencies from the site that have appalling project management practices (including but not limited to not paying, or paying late, looking for best rate translators, looking for best translators to attract clients but then hiring low quality/low rate translators instead, using CVs for fraudulent purposes, trying to use test translations as real jobs, etc.). We translators are the ones who are exposed to scammers and agencies with the above unacceptable business practices.

This program is about confidentiality, so it is really a different topic. We'll be releasing some Blue Board and job posting enhancements, which are more in the area of what you are discussing here.

Honestly I admit I haven't watched the video, but I will. And if I don't find answers to my questions, I'll let you know.

Thank you!


 
Peter Leeflang
Peter Leeflang  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:15
Member (2014)
French to English
+ ...
closing reply on comments by Mr Dotterer on my SecurePRO related reaction Dec 15, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:


Hi fmlinguistics. Thanks for posting. I would encourage you not to worry so much. You are not a second rate ProZ.com member, no one is, and the impact of this program on you, if you choose not to participate, is probably not as great as you seem to be fearing.


Mr Dotterer, I know what the impact will be (and it will be major, given that you have over 200,000 translators in this marketplace and many will be affected by this effectively downgrading of their previous status) since I have seen a similar thing happen on a multi-billion dollar marketplace where I generated a million with my own business there and got downgraded as well, in a similar way, cutting my revenue to a paltry sum within a year.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
I would say that you don't have to worry so much.......This thread is very similar, in terms of points being made, to the thread in which translator feedback (WWA) was introduced. We had some members ready to use it, people saying it couldn't be done (impossible to manage, not ProZ.com's place, privacy laws won't permit it, etc.), some saying they wanted no part of it, and some who wanted to not take part but who were afraid that it would immediately put them at an irreparable disadvantage. In fact, the program was instituted and is now used -- and there is every indication that the program has been useful for those who have opted to be involved -- but there was never a watershed event where those who opted out of WWA suddenly stopped being viable at ProZ.com. ....


That is comparing apples with oranges. WWA and SecurePro are not similar at all. First of all, WWA requires that the outsourcers undertake action. This new SecurePRO 'shield' (quite euphemistic, given that it actually puts us in jeopardy) does not requite any work by the outsourcer. He gets it for free. Because WWA requires the outsourcer to do work, few use it. It is really stillborn that way. Therefore it has no serious role in the decision making by an outsourcer. Also, there is no search, so filtering, for WWA, but there will be for this SecurePRO, so without WWA we did not become invisible, but we will without SecurePRO. Thirdly, I do not believe you were asking translators for an extra fee for WWA, did you? But you are doing so for SecurePRO. That is a big difference between having a barrier and having none.[/quote]

Henry Dotterer wrote:
I believe I said this in the video, but we do plan to offer something to LSPs in connection with the SecurePRO program.


That will be stillborn. It would only work in a sellers market not a buyers market. Byers (outsourcers) have no incentive to get this to flaunt their good payment practices and that their identity has been verified. In the current market it should be a required sign up procedure for them to get to post any jobs and we translators will surely pay extra for that service.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
We're not trying to coerce. And we are being very, very value-oriented here. I'm trying very hard to get you guys a lot, for a little! The cost differential for everything we are putting in Plus (not just this program) was just $40 in the introductory campaign. (Just one of the items in the package, CafeTran, costs 80 euros normally. I challenge anyone to put together a package with what the Plus package includes for $40. You will not be able to do it.)


We are not discussing the other components of Plus, since they are no 'mission critical' components, but SecurePRO is. Note also that most of us do not need a CafeTran. We have our own tools already.)


Henry Dotterer wrote:
And by the way, for someone who has been paying biannually, as you may have, the cost of the Plus package is actually lower, on an annual basis, that what you have been paying. If you are really interested in this program and it is the upfront cost that is the limiting factor, I will see what we can do about that. So in fact you are looking at getting more for less.


No, a bi-annual payment would make it even more expensive on an annual basis. It is also very simple: One pays for values not to buy off disvalues. Nothing in that SecurePRO will bring most of us more business, but without it we will lose lots of business and get left with the worst outsourcers as well.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
The goal of this program is to better assure confidentiality. By its nature, it can be successful only with the involvement of both LSPs and freelancers. (And, at least by extension, end clients.)

It is not up to a partner of a translator, a venue that offers us a service to be a promotor of our services and an intermediary with a transaction( sorry, we are not the venue its employees), to force compliance of confidentiality needs on us. The majority of outsourcers do not even have as they just assume basic confidentiality without constantly having NDA's signed, only government and major corporations require that and then we translators can refuse that and many of us actually do due to ominous liability statements in such documents.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
I don't know about that. If this program is successful, apart from the contribution to the industry in general, one outcome is that more work will come to ProZ.com members overall. Those who take part in the program will be best positioned to benefit from any increase in client traffic related to the program.


That is what that other multi-billion venue I talked about also said and their traffic numbers dropped like a stone following their new policies that 'de facto' did not create extra value for both sellers and buyers, but it created cannibalism between sellers and LOWERED the earnings of those who survived. It created a downward price trend. The outsourcers their customers will not pay extra for this, so there is no extra revenue to be expected, just less, for your as a site (you will also have less subscribers so a smaller customer base and that will put pressure on the remaining subscribers as well as you will have to raise your rates further to cover the shortfall) and for us as translators. What a venue, and especially this venue, I believe what we all need is that the venue offers services that in the end result in more revenue at the END CUSTOMER level. If the end customer can earn more, he can pay more and outsourcers can sell extra costs rationally, as a win/win. This means that the outsourcer will need to be able to offer more value to the end customer, and that is mostly only possible if the outsourcer gets offered more value by the translators. This is no such thing. It is trivial and will not get a premium with end customers, especially since many of those do not need it. There are many ways though that a venue like yours could make the job of a translator so much more productive and that way you would lower his costs and he would be able to pass those savings on, via outsourcers, to the end customer. Just imagine for example what huge lost productivity a translator incurs with qualifying his outsourcers and collecting his money. The end customer pays for that now. Unnecessarily so. Now THAT would be a major value proposition for all. Imagine that the end customer would not have to carry the burden anymore of scammers and insolvent companies!

Henry Dotterer wrote:
These forum threads have a way of snowballing in their sentiments, but let's retain perspective here.


So the point that this will turn the site from a one stop shopping place into a swiss cheese shopping is not worth addressing? We will see what reality says. Again. I have seen this happen in another venue.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
What we have done is launch an optional program focused on better assuring confidentiality in translation.


No, that is incorrect. It is NOT optional given the coercive character of it becoming a disvalue if we do not sign up with Plus.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
Is it really reasonable to expect a program with this objective to lead to putting anyone out of business, or to the demise of the site? The much more likely outcomes are that (1) it doesn't take hold, or (2) it leads to an incrementally healthier and more mature community and industry overall. Obviously we'll be shooting for the latter!


I'm still missing any actual argument.
No, no one said that Proz its intent is to put many translators out of business (would be quite silly), but any reasonable man can see that that is just what is going to happen. Reality is not optional. Our budgets are very limited right now. As are those of our customers, who will often try squeeze out the last cent to pay less, given the 'stormy weather' we're all in now. They will not earn more because of this SecurePRO nor will their end customers.
As to what the industry needs, we are not altruists. Our individual business needs come first, not that of some vague group called 'industry'. Our individualism is what allows us to excel, not being part of some vague group. A reminder that this is not politics but business.


Thanks anyway for taking the time. In the end, reality will be your judge. I just wanted to avoid us all having to go through the pain that it will result in by looking further ahead, long term, and looking at the whole picture, not at the short term revenue/cost involved with those SecurePRO. Nothing emotional, just using my rational mind. Passionate, yes, since I would hate to see the originally great idea behind this venue go south. Good starts are rare! And in the end rational people want win/wins to happen.

I also got to go and make some money now. So this will be my final reply for a while.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Sure, Tom Dec 15, 2016

Tom in London wrote:

Why do I need this? I still don't understand what it's for. I don't want to watch a video- just tell me in a few words.

OK. This program aims to provide tools that enable end clients, LSPs and freelancers to better assure confidentiality in outsourced translation and interpreting projects.

That is the short version. The long version is the video.


 
sindy cremer
sindy cremer
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
@Henry Dec 15, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Sindy, I don't want to appear unfriendly, I appreciate your many years of membership, but I have replied to you personally a few times now in the thread, and the nature of your postings makes me think that you may not have watched the introductory video. I know it is a bit long (26 minutes), and I know you may be busy with projects, but that video represents my best effort to thoroughly convey the objectives of the program. If you are going to take an active role in the discussion here, watching the video would be the place to start. Thank you.


I will not take offence to your remark that I should watch the video. I did – before I wrote my first contribution to this thread (page 3) and as a matter of fact I took three pages of notes while listening.
In that first reaction I told you that “I must admit that I was appalled by how little concrete information you were able to give in your video presentation about a programme that has already gone live. That you were not able to say anything about the verification process, what companies you are looking at for its implementation, how you will be guaranteeing security of the data, etc. etc.". So thank you for the suggestion, Henry, but I did plough through it.

Before I continue, let me first state that I am all for more security in confidentiality; that I am not against any initiative that could help promote that; that I have never renewed my Proz.com membership reluctantly as it has helped me find some new business and valuable contacts; and that I am not against the Plus Package as such, even though it does not offer anything of value FOR ME. I do feel that I am forced into purchasing it knowing that 'standard members' profiles will lose out to the Plussers in terms of searchability, but that is something for a different thread.

Let me also state that I do not want to appear unfriendly either. However, I have asked you questions which you have not answered, and like others here, I have the feeling that you are not listening. So I might sound a bit harsh, here and there.

This thread is about the SecurePro programme, and I have to be blunt. I see absolutely no point in your SecurePRO card.

You can talk about differentiation and providing tools to support verifiability and accountability for another 26 minutes; you may stress the fact that NDAs exist for some, but not for all sensitive projects; you may appeal to translators' potential to stand out by putting a statement on the back of a card. You can point at people's varying capabilities and the need for clarity on the requirements regarding confidentiality of each and every single job.
Surely, you can have people's details verified and for sure, that will provide 'traceability'. But all of this will NEVER provide the security of confidentiality, just like the 'P' will never guarantee quality, and just like people's professed native language or specialism will never be a guarantee for any of that either.

You may hire a verifying company to check people's identities and phone number.
You may then issue a card stating that the data was verified.
You may allow the bearer of the card to put any promise on the back of that card.

The question remains: is that going to help towards securing confidentiality?

It will not. As I said: it provides traceability. No more, no less.

Consider the following rough scenarios:

- If I have not signed up for your SecurePRO card, have not signed an NDA and divulge confidential information, I will lose the client in question and, depending on the circumstances, possibly my reputation and options to continue my translating career.

- If I do sign up for your SecurePRO card, have not signed an NDA and divulge confidential information, I will lose my Proz.com membership (or so I assume), the client in question and, depending on circumstances, possibly my reputation and options to continue my translating career.

- If I divulge confidential information after having signed an NDA, I can be SUED. The consequences will be extremely serious.

I agree with you that some translation projects are more sensitive than others and that NDAs are not signed on all occasions. Well, maybe Proz.com should focus on that; maybe you should start a campaign promoting the widespread use of NDAs in the industry. That would have my full support. But sorry, not some card with an empty statement on the back whose implementation cannot be checked and that has no sanctions of substance attached to it.

I discussed the issue with a client of mine - she runs a small law firm. I asked her the question: would it add anything to your trust in me if I could produce a SecurePRO card?
She responded: 'no, because I have an NDA with you and if you fail to meet your obligations, I will sue you'. (She added ‘and finish your career’.)
Then she asked me if the card was issued by an accredited institution. When I told her 'no', she said, 'well, then it doesn't have any value at all, does it?'

I cannot help but think that you know all this, Henry; you have been in this business for many years and you seem to be a professional person (I have seen other posts).

And I cannot help but think that your 'major initiative' is indeed a major selling point, since you promise subscribers to the SecurityPRO card added searchability features so that LSPs can 'more efficiently reach the appropriate translators' (see, I watched the video). In other words: if you sign up - you will be found; if you do not sign up - you'll miss out. If that is not a selling point, I'll eat my hat.



[Edited for typos at 2016-12-15 22:23 GMT]

[Edited at 2016-12-15 22:24 GMT]


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:15
Member (2008)
Italian to English
But... Dec 15, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

Why do I need this? I still don't understand what it's for. I don't want to watch a video- just tell me in a few words.

OK. This program aims to provide tools that enable end clients, LSPs and freelancers to better assure confidentiality in outsourced translation and interpreting projects.

That is the short version. The long version is the video.


But I already do all of that. I've been doing it for years. So I can't understand what this thing does.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, fmlinguistics! Dec 15, 2016

Your post is an interesting read, fmlinguistics. You are thoughtful! And your story about the large concern that failed over something similar to this has grabbed my attention. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake. (By the way I'm not proud; if this program turns out to be counter-productive we'll scrap it!)

There is one thing I don't understand about your logic, though. You seem to be saying that this is a program of tremendous significance, and simultaneously, that it w
... See more
Your post is an interesting read, fmlinguistics. You are thoughtful! And your story about the large concern that failed over something similar to this has grabbed my attention. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake. (By the way I'm not proud; if this program turns out to be counter-productive we'll scrap it!)

There is one thing I don't understand about your logic, though. You seem to be saying that this is a program of tremendous significance, and simultaneously, that it won't be used. Maybe I miss your point on that one.

About WWA, for what it is worth, there are 175,039 entries given to 41,213 users. A good number of outsourcers (though a minority) use it as a filtering factor.

And LSPs do have a strong motivation to differentiate on the basis of confidentiality practices. Visit the sites of ten LSPs and count how many talk about their confidentiality practices. Part of the irony is that LSPs are differentiating themselves in this way, while such differentiation is happening barely at all among freelancers. Our surveys suggest that a freelancer who is very careful and thorough with regard to confidentiality practices has gotten no "credit" in the marketplace up to now.

fmlinguistics wrote:
I also got to go and make some money now. So this will be my final reply for a while.

Fair enough! Please check back at some point in the future. If we are making that enormous error, I wouldn't mind hearing from you again.
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
My two-step recommendation Dec 15, 2016

Tom in London wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

Why do I need this? I still don't understand what it's for. I don't want to watch a video- just tell me in a few words.

OK. This program aims to provide tools that enable end clients, LSPs and freelancers to better assure confidentiality in outsourced translation and interpreting projects.

But I already do all of that. I've been doing it for years. So I can't understand what this thing does.

Fair enough! My advice would be to:

(1) write that, or something like it, in the SecurePRO section of your profile
(2) concern yourself with the program no more.

Of course if you don't like step (1), you can always go straight to step (2).


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:15
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Hmmm Dec 16, 2016

I have just had to spend time checking/updating my profile.

Completely without my knowledge it had been changed, and my 100% completeness had been reduced to 56%. By adding the new information requested, and unchecking a number of boxes that had been automatically checked, I have brought my profile back up to 100%. I have no idea for how long it was down to 56% and how this may have affected my ranking.

In future, Henry, please ensure that all Proz members are **individ
... See more
I have just had to spend time checking/updating my profile.

Completely without my knowledge it had been changed, and my 100% completeness had been reduced to 56%. By adding the new information requested, and unchecking a number of boxes that had been automatically checked, I have brought my profile back up to 100%. I have no idea for how long it was down to 56% and how this may have affected my ranking.

In future, Henry, please ensure that all Proz members are **individually** informed, by a personal email, of any changes to the way the profile thing works.

Since you seem to have entered a phase of innovation, may I suggest a complete makeover of the GUI? Isn't it time to modernise the outdated yellow/green/reddish-brown graphics?

[Edited at 2016-12-16 08:54 GMT]
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