| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Languages do not seem to be a popular choice of course at university nowadays (U.K.)
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| | | Applying languages to business | Jan 18, 2013 |
If business courses were taught in other languages other than English that might be more useful than courses that teach pure languages where the emphasis is on literature, literature and more literature. Like someone pointed out a language should be a springboard to other things.
| | | | Mark
Local time: 12:30
Italian to English
| English degree more useful than I thought | Jan 18, 2013 |
clairemcn wrote:I did study languages (meaning the typical literature degree with only an hour a week of 'language' study) and I regret it now. I always knew that I loved languages, but reading novel after novel just wasn't my thing and didn't really prepare me for anything at all. Hmm. Sort of the opposite of my case. A literature degree was my thing, and I did it without knowing what to do afterwards. I did well with German at school, but didn't feel the need to carry on. Then I met my Italian wife, learnt Italian in evening classes and headed optimistically to Italy.
Anyway, now that I review translations and translate myself, I appreciate the edge that my level of English gives me! My passive Italian is getting better and better, but being able to write good English really seems like the essential ingredient that is sometimes erroneously taken for granted, and while I'd really like to do some proper Italian and translation study, I get by as I am.
| | | | clairetransl (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:30
French to English
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| Traditional language degrees not very useful | Jan 18, 2013 |
Mark Dobson wrote: clairemcn wrote:I did study languages (meaning the typical literature degree with only an hour a week of 'language' study) and I regret it now. I always knew that I loved languages, but reading novel after novel just wasn't my thing and didn't really prepare me for anything at all. Hmm. Sort of the opposite of my case. A literature degree was my thing, and I did it without knowing what to do afterwards. I did well with German at school, but didn't feel the need to carry on. Then I met my Italian wife, learnt Italian in evening classes and headed optimistically to Italy. Anyway, now that I review translations and translate myself, I appreciate the edge that my level of English gives me! My passive Italian is getting better and better, but being able to write good English really seems like the essential ingredient that is sometimes erroneously taken for granted, and while I'd really like to do some proper Italian and translation study, I get by as I am.
Did you do English Literature, though? I meant that I studied a 'language' degree (French and Spanish) but that the focus was purely on literature. We had about an hour a week of grammar and another hour of conversation and that was it. Some people really enjoyed it, but I realised a bit too late that I'd have been much better off studying something more practical where I could actually *use* my languages instead of just reading and discussing books in English. Even the grammar classes were taught in English, which is pretty bad for a 'modern languages' degree! I think a lot of young people see the traditional language degrees as not very useful and you can't blame them when they're forking out £9000 a year on tuition.
| | | | Mark
Local time: 12:30
Italian to English
Yes, English Literature. What other people are saying about language degrees being too literature-focused sounds reasonable to me. Not much use understanding Dante when you have to translate diagnosis notes by car mechanics.
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clairetransl (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:30
French to English
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| Why aren't translation degrees an option for undergraduates? | Jan 18, 2013 |
Mark Dobson wrote:
Yes, English Literature. What other people are saying about language degrees being too literature-focused sounds reasonable to me. Not much use understanding Dante when you have to translate diagnosis notes by car mechanics.
Indeed. I think it might be an idea to introduce translation degrees at undergraduate level. As far as I know, translation is only available at postgraduate level in the UK. In Spain, it's normal to just do a translation degree with loads of practical work (even including subtitling courses and things like that!) which obviously has a much higher chance of leading to employment.
| | | | Alison Kennedy 
Italy
Local time: 12:30
Member (2008)
Italian to English
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| A University education ... | Jan 19, 2013 |
Back in the 70s, while studying for A-levels in the UK, you got to select 5 universities and courses. My first three were London universities and the degree was biochemistry. My fifth choice was German Lang & Lit at Manchester. I liked the 4-year course because most of it was spent in Germany, Austria, etc and not at University. In fact, I only spent my final year in Manchester. In 1979, when I graduated, you didn't need to look for a job, potential employers came to recruit you direct from uni... See more Back in the 70s, while studying for A-levels in the UK, you got to select 5 universities and courses. My first three were London universities and the degree was biochemistry. My fifth choice was German Lang & Lit at Manchester. I liked the 4-year course because most of it was spent in Germany, Austria, etc and not at University. In fact, I only spent my final year in Manchester. In 1979, when I graduated, you didn't need to look for a job, potential employers came to recruit you direct from university and these included banks, publishing houses, insurance, TV, businesses and many other sectors. It took me less than 2 weeks to get a job in publishing.
Back then, recruiters were looking for people who were trained in thinking, had proved they could reach an objective successfully and were willing to build a career - eighties-style!
I have known people who have won a scholarship to Cambridge at 16 to study law, changing to Classics, graduating at 19 and at 25 editor of an important business magazine and subbing on The Times.
The whole point of this "ramble" is not what you study but what you take out and learn. It's then up to you how you apply this in business life.
Just to give you my Bio: After publishing, I moved to Italy in 1981 and worked for 17 years in advertising and TV production. I have run an interior design shop and a company. I took a law degree at 46, worked for an international law firm in Milan and at 56 enjoy the freedom of freelance translation (legal and financial), with the odd design job thrown in.
As my mother said "languages are the icing on the cake!" (in Italian "the cherries on the cake!).
My advice to young people (including my kids, both at university in Italy) is to study what really interests you and not choose a degree thinking it will get you a job - it won't. ▲ Collapse
| | | | clairetransl (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:30
French to English
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| Things are very different now | Jan 19, 2013 |
Alison Kennedy wrote:
Back in the 70s, while studying for A-levels in the UK, you got to select 5 universities and courses. My first three were London universities and the degree was biochemistry. My fifth choice was German Lang & Lit at Manchester. I liked the 4-year course because most of it was spent in Germany, Austria, etc and not at University. In fact, I only spent my final year in Manchester. In 1979, when I graduated, you didn't need to look for a job, potential employers came to recruit you direct from university and these included banks, publishing houses, insurance, TV, businesses and many other sectors. It took me less than 2 weeks to get a job in publishing.
Back then, recruiters were looking for people who were trained in thinking, had proved they could reach an objective successfully and were willing to build a career - eighties-style!
I have known people who have won a scholarship to Cambridge at 16 to study law, changing to Classics, graduating at 19 and at 25 editor of an important business magazine and subbing on The Times.
The whole point of this "ramble" is not what you study but what you take out and learn. It's then up to you how you apply this in business life.
Just to give you my Bio: After publishing, I moved to Italy in 1981 and worked for 17 years in advertising and TV production. I have run an interior design shop and a company. I took a law degree at 46, worked for an international law firm in Milan and at 56 enjoy the freedom of freelance translation (legal and financial), with the odd design job thrown in.
As my mother said "languages are the icing on the cake!" (in Italian "the cherries on the cake!).
My advice to young people (including my kids, both at university in Italy) is to study what really interests you and not choose a degree thinking it will get you a job - it won't.
The problem is that things were very, very different back then. The situation you described was the norm in the seventies and eighties. It's a completely different world now.
Far, far more people go to university, tuition fees are extremely high, there is way more competition for jobs, employers increasingly want graduates who can just turn up and start the job. They're not willing to invest time and money in training new employees. Not that it's impossible to get a job after studying Classics or English Literature, but it's much, much harder than it used to be. Entry level jobs are being replaced by internships, so after your 3 or 4 year degree, it's common to be expected to work without being paid for another year or two. This inevitably results in the better-off students being able to do internships in their chosen field while their parents support them and the not-so-well off students taking any old job to pay the bills.
I graduated in 2007 and many of my classmates are still struggling to pay the rent and are finding it impossible to break into their chosen fields. They all did very well at university, have worked part-time since they were at school and have skills, show initiative etc. There are just fewer jobs available and too many other people who have either connections or more 'practical' degrees which make it easier for them to walk into a job and start doing it without needing to be trained. Back in 2002, when I was selecting universities, I never dreamed things would be this dire, but they are. If I had kids at school now and they wanted to study languages, I think I'd encourage them to do something as practical as possible, such as Business or Law with French.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:30
Hebrew to English
| Agree with both Alison and Claire | Jan 19, 2013 |
Claire is right in that a lot is different now than in the 70s/80s.
However, given the fact that we are now asking people to hand over £9,000 a year, I'd be quite hesitant to advise someone to study something they didn't enjoy (or worse, hated but thought it 'might' get them a job).
A lot has also changed in the world of work though too, gone are the days of being recruited straight out of university, of job security, of 'careers for life'. Therefore, what you gradua... See more Claire is right in that a lot is different now than in the 70s/80s.
However, given the fact that we are now asking people to hand over £9,000 a year, I'd be quite hesitant to advise someone to study something they didn't enjoy (or worse, hated but thought it 'might' get them a job).
A lot has also changed in the world of work though too, gone are the days of being recruited straight out of university, of job security, of 'careers for life'. Therefore, what you graduate with might not be what you end up doing for the rest of your life.
Probably why "transferable skills" has become so ubiquitous on CVs.
Buuuuuut, I disagree with a few of the more recent posters that language degrees lack the value of other "more practical" degrees. Although the content of *some* language degrees really needs to be addressed (i.e. less focus on literature). ▲ Collapse
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Tatty
Local time: 12:30
Spanish to English
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| Yes, things are very different | Jan 19, 2013 |
I couldn't get my fingers on the keypad quick enough to back up Claire's opinion. Young people are very impressionable and while Alison's point of view is lovely, and very romantic, it's just not relevant today.
Old-style languages degrees have never been a relevant course of studies, in my opinion. My first degree was in languages with a focus on law and economics. I made sure that all the lecturers were native speakers and that all classes were given in the foreign languages. What's... See more I couldn't get my fingers on the keypad quick enough to back up Claire's opinion. Young people are very impressionable and while Alison's point of view is lovely, and very romantic, it's just not relevant today.
Old-style languages degrees have never been a relevant course of studies, in my opinion. My first degree was in languages with a focus on law and economics. I made sure that all the lecturers were native speakers and that all classes were given in the foreign languages. What's more, we spent 2 years at foreign unis. Even so, the degree course was definately under par. Luckily I got foreign qualifications out of it. Which is what brings me to my main point. I got to do one year of the Spanish translating degree, but I graduated about 15 years ago now. At least back them, Spanish unis catered to the crowds. The translations set were very long and very easy. The upshot was that it didn't prepare you in the slightest for performing paid translations. I think that the texts we did in England were more useful. But having said that, at least I got some practice in. And it was a great way to improve my writing skills in the foreign languages. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 12:30
Spanish to English
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| Organised translation degree | Jan 19, 2013 |
If there were such a thing as an organised translation degree based on a body of knowledge that was useful and relevant, translation could become a profession in the UK. So, I wouldn't hold your breath.
| | | | | It IS an option in Denmark | Jan 21, 2013 |
For the simple reason that the population of Denmark is about the size of a major city (5 million rounded off), translation is a very important business.
There are specific courses in business languages, starting with how to write basic letters, grammar, business economics, conversation and cultural differences (We read Geert Hofstede among others).
For the bachelor degree, students take two languages, or it is possible to combine one language with another subject.
... See more For the simple reason that the population of Denmark is about the size of a major city (5 million rounded off), translation is a very important business.
There are specific courses in business languages, starting with how to write basic letters, grammar, business economics, conversation and cultural differences (We read Geert Hofstede among others).
For the bachelor degree, students take two languages, or it is possible to combine one language with another subject.
There is considerable practice in speaking and writing the language - business communications and 'propagating information', which can be anything from writing instruction manuals and product descriptions or marketing information to dealing with practical situations as they arise.
Terminology and use of dictionaries and reference resources, compiling glossaries and so on.
I don't remember or did not do all the undergraduate phases, but it goes on to a two-year Master's degree in one of the two languages, with more technology, economics, comparative law, and how to translate in selected special fields.
It includes plenty of grammar in the foreign language - Danes are expected to speak and write it as well as translate into it, as a very healthy exercise if not always for professional purposes.
Finally a thesis on some aspect of translation that gives 30 ECTs.
Five years solid work, and you are then qualified to apply for State Authorisation.
I did a one year diploma - roughy similar, but as distance teaching and without the interpretation or the thesis.
There are lots of combinations with other subjects and variations on the language theme.
It's a big decision to up sticks and take a whole degree abroad, but maybe that is what British students need to do.
The solid teaching in the various genres and practical usage of the language are really valuable, and the cultural side is not ignored.
Of course there are courses in literature and culture, and many excellent translators have done it that way too, but if you want legal or medical translation, then I know which background I would look for...
I am very sad about developments in the UK at the moment - I have several nephews and nieces at university, and I know life is not easy for new graduates these days. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | My jaw dropped... | Jan 21, 2013 |
clairemcn wrote:
I did study languages (meaning the typical literature degree with only an hour a week of 'language' study)
I earned "the typical literature (& teaching) degree" in Poland back in the early eighties, but the programme delivery mode was very different: a bit more than 1/3 of the total hours was devoted to literature (language of instruction - my chosen foreign lang, i.e. EN), over 1/2 to linguistics and mastering the language as such (translation, phonology, independent writing, vocab, descriptive grammar, semantics, what-not) - again instruction in EN, with only the remainder (mostly teaching methods) taught in the native language. Plus of course the necessary reading, also in EN. The result was that from mid-Year 2 onwards my dreams were also in EN...
Then, my own daughter studied translation in the UK (Aston) in the early 2000s and it was also the language of choice most of the time... with a similar impact on her psyche.
I can understand that young people may find a Modern Languages programme useless if delivered as you describe it - I would, too.
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clairemcn wrote:
Indeed. I think it might be an idea to introduce translation degrees at undergraduate level. As far as I know, translation is only available at postgraduate level in the UK.
I know of at least one: http://www1.aston.ac.uk/lss/undergraduate/
| | | | | Couldn't agree more :) | Jan 21, 2013 |
Mark Dobson wrote:
Anyway, now that I review translations and translate myself, I appreciate the edge that my level of English gives me! My passive Italian is getting better and better, but being able to write good English really seems like the essential ingredient that is sometimes erroneously taken for granted, and while I'd really like to do some proper Italian and translation study, I get by as I am.
I seems to me that Mod Lang / Translation programmes do indeed take the native language skills for granted, and the results are atrocious when people unable to write properly start translating into their native language. They may understand the source really well but that does not save the translation produced from being unreadable - poor grammar, poor punctuation, mixing up native vocab meanings (sic!) etc. etc.
The assumption is that if you managed to pass A-levels in the native language, you can write it properly in all registers. Nothing of the sort... coz at the secondary level you also study literature and not the "language as such". Teaching proper syntax, punctuation etc. is actually over when you leave the primary, at least in Poland. And then at work people are asked to write reports, explain the operation of devices in writing, and so on. Hardly comprehensible blubber...
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:30
Hebrew to English
| Starting to happen.... | Jan 21, 2013 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
It's a big decision to up sticks and take a whole degree abroad, but maybe that is what British students need to do.
...Although the impetus to do so is largely financial with the recent hike in fees.
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