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谁会讲普通话?
Thread poster: Phil Hand
wherestip
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普通话 Oct 5, 2014

Whether one is successful in intentionally picking up an accent or intentionally avoiding it, IMO, depends on one's mental acuteness and keenness in hearing, two qualities which I believe are important to a language professional.

I've personally always been for speaking intelligibly to a wider audience without a regional or local accent, BTW.

I had an offer for an internal transfer to Raleigh, NC while working in Austin, TX. But I turned it down, mostly because I figu
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Whether one is successful in intentionally picking up an accent or intentionally avoiding it, IMO, depends on one's mental acuteness and keenness in hearing, two qualities which I believe are important to a language professional.

I've personally always been for speaking intelligibly to a wider audience without a regional or local accent, BTW.

I had an offer for an internal transfer to Raleigh, NC while working in Austin, TX. But I turned it down, mostly because I figured the accent of the locals would have driven me nuts. Not that the Texan accent was any great shakes either; but the way I saw it, it was the lesser of two evils.

Although it goes against being politically correct, respect for diversity, and all that jazz, I have to admit that there's always been a parallel for me about native folks reluctant or unable to master Standard Mandarin while living their whole lives in Mainland China. For Pete's sake, it's been persistently promoted for at least a century under different political systems.


[Edited at 2014-10-06 02:27 GMT]
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Phil Hand
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Mair教授 Oct 6, 2014

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=6786
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=15006

The late Jerry Norman, who is considered by many to be one of the best Chinese linguists of the second half of the 20th century and the early part of the 21st century, once told me privately that he thought that there were at least 300 different varieties of Mandarin that were more or less mutually unintelligible, and that they were essentially different languages, not dialects.

Namely, when a high-ranking Chinese leader is speaking on television, even though we see his mouth moving, we almost never hear his voice. Instead, someone speaking CCTV MSM will summarize what the great leader is saying.
...
Is it because they fear the leaders should be perceived as faultless in speech, whereas everyone is bound to make mistakes big and small when speaking? Or is it because very few of China's leaders speak anything close to MSM?

MSM= Modern Standard Mandarin, 标准普通话

应该强调,所谓官话方言组是历史语言学的语言系概念,不代表所有的“官话”类方言都属于同一个语种。

对于播放源音的问题,我觉得其中一个因素是领导语速太慢!新闻联播主持人放话疾速,估计习近平不符合他们的高标准!


 
wherestip
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U of Penn Blogs Oct 6, 2014

Phil,

Thanks for the interesting links. I get the image of a bunch of academics discussing the Chinese language up in their ivory tower over at the Univ of Pennsylvania.

My opinion is the 300 varieties basically belong to the same Northern Mandarin dialect. How soon a variety can become intelligible to an outsider depends on the individual's intellect and hearing. One person might need a few weeks to ad
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Phil,

Thanks for the interesting links. I get the image of a bunch of academics discussing the Chinese language up in their ivory tower over at the Univ of Pennsylvania.

My opinion is the 300 varieties basically belong to the same Northern Mandarin dialect. How soon a variety can become intelligible to an outsider depends on the individual's intellect and hearing. One person might need a few weeks to adjust to a certain local accent in order to understand what is being communicated to him, while another might catch on either quicker or slower. But the dialect is the same Northern China Mandarin dialect.

BTW, although the boundaries aren't very clear-cut, I agree with what jyuan said about the differentiation between accents and dialects. While there are lots of different accents among the Northern Mandarin dialect, Shanghai(n)ese and Cantonese could be classified as separate dialects altogether; they are clearly distinguishable from the Northern Mandarin dialect.

I think you're right about the voice-over practice in the Chinese media - the main consideration is probably time constraints and also the lack of necessity of airing a speech in its original. In the old days (meaning when I was there), many of the senior leaders indeed had heavy accents when speaking Mandarin, but nowadays that no longer seems to be the case. As a matter of fact, these days they do hold press conferences where the senior leadership member openly speaks to the media; pk provided links to such events many a time. Perhaps this past post of his and the YouTube clip included (media news report) could have been helpful to the professor in some of his ruminations ...

http://www.proz.com/post/2259317#2259317


[Edited at 2014-10-06 22:53 GMT]
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Z-Kong
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非也 Oct 8, 2014

he-li wrote:

用普通话朗读唐诗宋词很押韵,声调好听。

不知道用闽南话或其他方言朗诵唐诗宋词,会不会很别扭?也许唐诗宋词就是用普通话写的?


古代写辞作赋的文人,来自各地。那时候好像不存在官方订立的普通话。例如许多文人来自江南,那江南的zhi chi shi 和 zi ci si ,an ang,之类的,他们是很难区分的。他们说四十是四十,再如何努力也还是 四思(2声)四四思(2声)。

还有陕西曾是古都,那里曾充斥着各种才子学子和佳人。你想想用陕西味儿读古诗是什么味道。^_^ 然后还有杭州,南京这些地方。

唐宋元明清——唐诗宋词盛行的时候,国都还是陕西或者河南呢。那时候汉语可能更多的是受到中原和中部偏南的影响更多。明朝才真的永久性的定都北京。我们现在的普通话,应当是北方方言经过标准化得来的,其根源应该是跟满人掌权控制了中国有很大关系。如果当初定都南京没改,说不定我们现在的普通话就是南方方言标准化得来

PS:《孔雀东南飞》,抛弃偏见,听着用河南话念出来,其实蛮有味道的。我曾想,河南话的方言口音是不是也导致了音乐上的特色:我个人觉得,豫派古筝是我听过的几个里最喜爱的派系,因为有种铿锵大气的感觉,好像西关大汉击缶高唱“大江东去”的感觉

[Edited at 2014-10-08 01:40 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-10-08 01:50 GMT]


 
Allen Yu (X)
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变相的焚书坑儒 Oct 8, 2014

Rita Pang wrote:

Frank Wang wrote:

中国的方言实在太多,差异实在太大,相互之间根本听不懂,如果没有个普通话作为标准,又如何顺畅交流呢,总不能两个地方的人见面后写纸条吧。很多人都说要保护好各地方言,我个人来看没有这个必要,与保护方言相比,打破交流壁垒更加有意义。


顺畅交流非常重要,普通话教育一定要做的好,可是摒弃方言只会是中国的损失。就说广东话把,这是一个古老的语言,分9声,很多用词用字等反映了旧时代一直流传下来的东西,美极、有意思之极。

至于某些方言只能说是口音一说,这我不太认同。中国方言当中有些当然是自成一格的,语言学中所谓“mutually unintelligible" (不能相互明白),但当一个方言在演变下开始加入自己的地方特色,长久下去会演变成一个独立方言。当然,它们还是属于同一个语言体系,而且如果分别只是在于发音方面能被区分的话,那的确只能是accent,不是dialect.

很同意你的说法。所谓打破语言壁垒,实现普通话大一统,听上去似乎姿态很高,其实是一种非常短视、狭隘的观点。在我看来与焚书坑儒无异。不尊重文化本身的多样性,跟韩国女人整容没什么区别。


 
Frank Wong
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表达观点 Oct 9, 2014

THE ANSWER 3 wrote:

Rita Pang wrote:

Frank Wang wrote:

中国的方言实在太多,差异实在太大,相互之间根本听不懂,如果没有个普通话作为标准,又如何顺畅交流呢,总不能两个地方的人见面后写纸条吧。很多人都说要保护好各地方言,我个人来看没有这个必要,与保护方言相比,打破交流壁垒更加有意义。


顺畅交流非常重要,普通话教育一定要做的好,可是摒弃方言只会是中国的损失。就说广东话把,这是一个古老的语言,分9声,很多用词用字等反映了旧时代一直流传下来的东西,美极、有意思之极。

至于某些方言只能说是口音一说,这我不太认同。中国方言当中有些当然是自成一格的,语言学中所谓“mutually unintelligible" (不能相互明白),但当一个方言在演变下开始加入自己的地方特色,长久下去会演变成一个独立方言。当然,它们还是属于同一个语言体系,而且如果分别只是在于发音方面能被区分的话,那的确只能是accent,不是dialect.

很同意你的说法。所谓打破语言壁垒,实现普通话大一统,听上去似乎姿态很高,其实是一种非常短视、狭隘的观点。在我看来与焚书坑儒无异。不尊重文化本身的多样性,跟韩国女人整容没什么区别。


每个人愿意说什么方言就说什么方言,愿意保护哪种方言就保护哪种方言,谁也干涉不了,但是有个普通话不是很方便吗,说得标准与否不重要,重要的是能听懂。

[Edited at 2014-10-09 01:09 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
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事实 Oct 9, 2014

Frank Wang wrote:

每个人愿意说什么方言就说什么方言,愿意保护哪种方言就保护哪种方言,谁也干涉不了,但是有个普通话不是很方便吗,说得标准与否不重要,重要的是能听懂。

什么干扰不了,讲方言的小孩在学校里挨打不是干扰吗?在闽南地区,至少在我老婆上学的90年代,只要人在校园内就不准讲闽南话,包括课间玩耍时,老师一听闽南话就惩罚小孩了。现在不用,我儿子的小学里没有一个小朋友愿意说闽南话。
普通话带来的方便我并不否认(我根本不会说闽南话!),但客观来讲,普通话的快速普及是一种“文化暴力”,甚至包括身体暴力的过程。


 
QHE
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How about British colonialism and the linguistic imperialism? Oct 9, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

普通话带来的方便我并不否认(我根本不会说闽南话!),但客观来讲,普通话的快速普及是一种“文化暴力”,甚至包括身体暴力的过程。


 
wherestip
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山高皇帝远 Oct 9, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

什么干扰不了,讲方言的小孩在学校里挨打不是干扰吗?在闽南地区,至少在我老婆上学的90年代,只要人在校园内就不准讲闽南话,包括课间玩耍时,老师一听闽南话就惩罚小孩了。现在不用,我儿子的小学里没有一个小朋友愿意说闽南话。
普通话带来的方便我并不否认(我根本不会说闽南话!),但客观来讲,普通话的快速普及是一种“文化暴力”,甚至包括身体暴力的过程。


Phil,

Seems to me that that's something you'd have to pick up with the local authorities. I doubt it has anything to do with public policies that come from the top.

Of course I'm just guessing from afar. Yet Zhoudan mentioned that some of the schools in her area are starting to offer 杭州话 in their curriculum. The issue seems to depend on how well local officials interpret central governmental guidance and policies.


[Edited at 2014-10-09 03:12 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
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Just like the cultural revolution, huh? Oct 9, 2014

wherestip wrote:

Seems to me that that's something you'd have to pick up with the local authorities. I doubt it has anything to do with public policies that come from the top.

That's the argument behind which bad policy always hides in this country. I urge you never to let it pass your lips!

I don't actually have any great desire to "pick up" this issue at all. It's not my fight. I'm just saying, let's try to have a vaguely objective understanding of history. It is possible to think that universal Mandarin is a good thing without claiming that everything about Mandarin policy has been just peachy creamy.


 
wherestip
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Good or bad policy Oct 9, 2014

Well, Phil, I'm no "freedom fighter" for sure.

But personally I see nothing wrong with the Chinese central government promoting a national universal standard language. The way I see it, not only is it similar in nature to, but it's actually less demanding than the basic English language prerequisite for naturalization here in the United States.

http://www.cuny.edu/about/resources/citizenship/faqs/citizen.html



Do I need to be able to speak English to become a U.S. citizen?
Yes, you must be able to read, write, and speak simple English.  There are some exceptions for some older and long-time residents, and for some disabled permanent residents.



http://tudecidesmedia.com/immigration-obtaining-citizenship-without-the-requirement-of-speaking-engl-p2069-128.htm


[Edited at 2014-10-09 05:39 GMT]


 
Fargoer
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暴力与霸凌 Oct 9, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

Frank Wang wrote:

每个人愿意说什么方言就说什么方言,愿意保护哪种方言就保护哪种方言,谁也干涉不了,但是有个普通话不是很方便吗,说得标准与否不重要,重要的是能听懂。

什么干扰不了,讲方言的小孩在学校里挨打不是干扰吗?在闽南地区,至少在我老婆上学的90年代,只要人在校园内就不准讲闽南话,包括课间玩耍时,老师一听闽南话就惩罚小孩了。现在不用,我儿子的小学里没有一个小朋友愿意说闽南话。
普通话带来的方便我并不否认(我根本不会说闽南话!),但客观来讲,普通话的快速普及是一种“文化暴力”,甚至包括身体暴力的过程。


您说的这种“文化暴力”确实存在。这和政府提倡讲普通话有些关系,但未必是政策的直接后果。可能只某些粗暴的教师实施体罚拿方言做借口而已。

我小时候回老家,经常会因为乡音移改而被同龄的孩子视为异类,并因此而遭到霸凌。有一次,对方拿着一条赶大车的马鞭,长鞭一甩啪啪响。而我正好打柴回来,身背一大捆柴禾,腰间别着一把镰刀。双方对峙,剑拔弩张。好在双方的武器都太恐怖,因此有所克制。最后扭打几下各自收手。他们欺负我,大概不是因为我代表普通话的“文化暴力”,充其量是对忘记乡土的“侉子”的惩戒。而我奋力反击,也不是为了捍卫普通话,只是维护个人尊严而已。这种现象在不同方言的族群之间恐怕是常有之事。而您太太学校里发生的事,有可能只是这种现象的变体。


 
Rita Pang
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罚抄 Oct 9, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

什么干扰不了,讲方言的小孩在学校里挨打不是干扰吗?在闽南地区,至少在我老婆上学的90年代,只要人在校园内就不准讲闽南话,包括课间玩耍时,老师一听闽南话就惩罚小孩了。现在不用,我儿子的小学里没有一个小朋友愿意说闽南话。
普通话带来的方便我并不否认(我根本不会说闽南话!),但客观来讲,普通话的快速普及是一种“文化暴力”,甚至包括身体暴力的过程。


在香港读书时,我在一所历史悠久的修会学校读书,我们学校非常注重英语教育,有些老师尤甚。我曾经试过在英语堂上不小心喊出了”哎呀“而被罚抄书、罚写文。每说一个中文字,罚一篇。最惨痛就是说了一句”我不懂要怎么解释“然后被罚抄8次....我的英语就是这样练出来的。


 
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谁会讲普通话?






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