Ildiko Santana Nov 9, 2011:

why outpatient (János) With all due respect, there IS mention of "outpatient." You might have overlooked the verb in "gondozásra nem jár" - jár: go to / attend. Two trivial examples: iskolába jár = go to school / attend school; moziba jár = go to the movies. Nevertheless, I do agree that the emphasis is on care, hence "not receiving care" can be sufficient in this context.

JANOS SAMU Nov 8, 2011:

No mention of outpatient (járóbeteg) Gondozás and that's all. Rely on what the expert said - only the writer knows what he/she meant.

Katalin Horváth McClure Nov 8, 2011:

English phrases in Hungarian patient care? "In Hungary patient care which don't need hospital stay is called outpatient care."
I don't think it is called "outpatient care", as "outpatient care" is an English phrase and in Hungary they do not use English phrases for naming various types of care or facilities, etc.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

That's why I wrote outpatient care service/program, and that's why I didn't write outpatient clinic in my answer. In Hungary patient care which don't need hospital stay is called outpatient care.

http://www.eum.hu/archivum/egeszsegugyi-ellatas/jarobeteg-sz...

Járóbeteg szakellátás

2005.03.17 00:00 - EüM

Jogszabályi háttér:

Mit értünk járóbeteg-szakellátás alatt?

A járóbeteg-szakellátás általában az ágyhoz nem kötött betegek gyógyító, megelőző ellátása. Az általános járóbeteg szakellátást az odaforduló egészséges vagy beteg ember a saját jelentkezése, vagy orvosi beutalás alapján veheti igénybe. Az ellátás lehet vizsgálat, kezelés, gondozás, illetve gyógyszer és kötszer biztosítása.

Milyen gondozók vannak?

tüdőgondozó
bőr- és nemibeteg gondozó
onkológiai gondozó
pszichiátriai gondozó
addiktológiai gondozó

Mely ellátások vehetők igénybe térítésmentesen?

A járóbeteg-szakellátás során a biztosított személy térítésmentesen jogosult:

az ellátás során végzett vizsgálatokra, gyógykezelésre,
az ellátás során felhasznált gyógyszerre, kötszerre,
a gyógykezeléshez szükséges orvosi szakvéleményre, gondozásra,

My last post in this Kudoz

JANOS SAMU Nov 8, 2011:

Confirmation Referring to Katalin Szilárd's statement Any Hungarian native-speaker doctor who is living in Hungary will confirm this. I called my ex-school mate in Hungary, in Szentes, who is a retired hospital director and reqeusted his opinion. He stated that only the writer could tell what he meant, because there are many types of gondozás and in most the treatment is provided by a gondozó, instead of a doctor. It can be in a hospital, in an outpatient clinic, in a community center etc.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

The magic of languages: context and country "Pszichiátriai osztályon korábban nem kezeltek, gondozásra nem jár" is the sentence of the asker.

In Hungary in the above sentence "gondozás" means "járóbeteg-gondozóba járni". Any Hungarian native-speaker doctor who is living in Hungary will confirm this.

Just as you, Katalin, I don't think I could add more explanations to this term.

Katalin Horváth McClure Nov 8, 2011:

Gondozó vs. gondozás I think the problem is (as Janos also explained) that "gondozó" is not the same as "gondozás". "nem jár gondozásra" is not the same as "nem jár gondozóba". "doesn't visit outpatient care service" would be OK if they wanted to say "nem jár a járóbeteg-gondozóba", which focuses on the act of going to this place. As you said, people can visit these centers for many reasons, not only for "gondozás".
What they are saying here is "nem jár gondozásra", which means he is not receiving "gondozás" (care) in any form or shape. The focus is on what is happening (or not happening) to him, independent of where that should be happening. This is because "gondozás" can happen at many different places, not only at outpatient centers. (But I have said that before.)
I am sorry, but I don't think I could add anything new after this. I hope the asker found what he was looking for.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

@ Katalin I think we added our posts at the same time.
Please, see the form of outpatient care below.

A járóbeteg-gondozók formái

tüdőgondozó
bőr- és nemibeteg gondozó
onkológiai gondozó
pszichiátriai gondozó
addiktológiai gondozó

Katalin Horváth McClure Nov 8, 2011:

Pszichiátriai gondozó Psychiatric care can be performed at a "Pszichiátriai gondozó" as well, which is also a "szakrendelő", but not necessary affiliated with a hospital. There are several "Egészségügyi Szolgáltató" non-profits that are independently operated.
Other places, such as the specialists office, and even the patient's home can be the location.
Please read this, especially the parts about kezelés és terápia, as you seem to deny that therapy and treatment has anything to do with "gondozás":
"A pszichiátriai gondozás keretében az évekig való kezelést, a pszichés állapot folyamatos követését kívánó eseteket látjuk el. Ennek keretében a beteg lakásán történő kapcsolattartás is a terápia része. A lakáson történő látogatásokat döntően védőnőink végzik.
A pszichiátriai szakellátási tevékenységünk a felnőttkori mentális zavarok szinte teljes spektumára kiterjed.
Mindkét tevékenységi körben szemléletünket a gyógyszeres – és pszichoterápia együttes alkalmazására való törekvés jellemzi"
http://www.gyogyir11.hu/rendelo.php?orvos=8&id=49

That's why I am suggesting to avoid "outpatient", because "gondozás" is more generic, not restricted to the hospital's outpatient care center.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

@ János http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Járóbeteg-szakellátás

A járóbeteg-szakellátás általában az ágyhoz nem kötött betegek gyógyító, megelőző ellátása. Az általános járóbeteg szakellátást az odaforduló egészséges vagy beteg ember a saját jelentkezése, vagy beutaló alapján veheti igénybe. Az ellátás lehet vizsgálat, kezelés, gondozás, illetve gyógyszer és kötszer biztosítása.

A járóbeteg-szakellátás igénybevétele előtt a személyazonosságot igazolni kell, illetve abban az esetben, ha a beteg társadalombiztosítási támogatással veszi igénybe az ellátást, akkor az eredeti TAJ-kártyát is be kell mutatni.


A járóbeteg-gondozók formái

tüdőgondozó
bőr- és nemibeteg gondozó
onkológiai gondozó
pszichiátriai gondozó
addiktológiai gondozó

JANOS SAMU Nov 8, 2011:

Absolutely not exclusive When a visiting nurse goes to the home of the patient who cannot move and injects his insulin or other medication is also gondozás. When two nurses go to change the diaper and to bath a disabled elderly (maybe after stroke) at home, it is also gondozás. A tüdőgondozó also provides medication prescribed by the pulmologist. http://www.rethy.hu/index.fcgi?rx=&item=&nyelv=hu&menuparam3... So, gondozás is not just outpatient care.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

Katalin, what's the problem with outpatient care? This is what gondozás is about: In Hungary gondozás is done in the szakrendelő (járóbetegellátásként).

"Outpatient care" in English (at least here in the US) means a facility at the hospital, either physically inside the hospital, or as an attached unit, or part of the same campus"

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

I cannot explain it better I could only repeat myself. Yes anybody can go to those places if he/she feels sick, but it doesn't mean she/he will get a treatment. That's why gondozás means only taking care.

"Szem előtt van a beteg. " - said by many physicians.

Katalin Horváth McClure Nov 8, 2011:

Solution After reading all contributions, I think "gondozásra nem jár" = "not in psychiatric care" may be the best here, because it does not contain "outpatient" - which has a very definite and restrictive meaning in English (see my earlier note).

JANOS SAMU Nov 8, 2011:

Arbitrary definitions Katalin, you "kötöd az ebet a karóhoz" and using arbitrary definitions for the word gondozás. There are many tüdőgondozó intézet, where pulmonary diseases are diagnosed and treated and csecsemőgondozó where babies and children are treated and both have gondozás in their names.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

According to your interpetation the text should say: kezelésre nem jár.

Kezelés and gondozás are 2 different things.

We can kezelni (treat) illnesses. But we can gondozni (give a patient care) anybody who needs help or advice or has questions.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

Care and treatment are NOT the same Treatment means that the patient is ill according to a doctor and the doctor prescribes a type of treatment. Patient care (betegellátás) has a totally different meaning. I met hundreds of "patients" who visited the patient care centers/hospitals because for example their kids were crying too loud (parents though the kid was ill). Doctor examined the kid and then he/she DID NOT treat him, because for example a kid had gas in his digestive tract. LOL

Care means ellátás which means the doctor examines the patient.
Treatment means that according to the symptoms of the patient the doctor decides that the patient needs a type of treatment (for example medication or surgery or physiotherapy etc.)

JANOS SAMU Nov 8, 2011:

Care and treatment Gondozás can mean both treatment and care. There is no such thing as "real treatment". If the health care provider or mental care specialist suggests weekly or monthly visits to a play activity or physical exercise to improve or to manage the condition of the patient it is a treatment. Consider that laughing is also a medicine. So, patients suffering from depression are frequently instructed to attend therapeutic consultations where the specialist talks with him/her in a cheerful environment (garden, or cheerfully decorated room) and it is therapy. In Hungarian it is also gondozás. Therefore in the given context the emphasis is on the therapy.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

These links also say that it means a kind of szakrendelés.

http://info.eyko.hu/szakrendelesek.pdf

http://www.gygamarket.hu/01fooldal/01szakrendelesek.htm

Pszichiátria-gondozás (Szakrendelő) Dr. Márton Éva

It is not just an accident that right beside the word gondozás we can read rendelő. You can get a patient care there but not necessarily a treatment. it is very important to understand that treatment/therapy must be given only if the doctor decides that treatment/therapy is necessary. If somebody feels sick, it doesn't mean he/she will really get a treatment, because maybe he is not even ill according to the doctor. But he/she can still visit the these consultation rooms. Gondozás means visiting these facilities.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

The meaning of pszichiátria gondozás I cannot explain it better than this site:

http://dbvesz.hu/felnott-pszichiatriai-gondozo

You can see there on the op of the facility járóbeteg központ - outpatient center

A gyógyszeres kezelés mellett segítséget nyújtanak a betegek életvezetési problémáinak megoldásában, lelki támogatást nyújtanak különböző életszakok okozta pszichés problémák esetén.

A gondozó szoros együttműködést alakított ki a városunkban működő közösségi pszichiátriai ellátó szervezetekkel, akik segítséget nyújtanak a betegek mindennapi (szociális, jogi) problémáinak megoldásában.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

I am not mixing anything I am telling what gondozás means in this context within the borders of Hungary. And YES terhesgongozás is a very important word to meaning association because the key word is "gondozás". In Hungary terhesgondozás has a lot to do with outpatient care.

Katalin Horváth McClure Nov 8, 2011:

Let's not mix things up "Terhesgondozás" in English is Prenatal Care. It has nothing to do with the current question. It doesn't even have to do anything with outpatient care, because it can be and usually done at the OB/GYN's office, not at the hospital.
The context here is psychiatry. Psychiatric care is not limited to outpatient centers, it can be performed at the doctor's office, too.
"Outpatient care" in English (at least here in the US) means a facility at the hospital, either physically inside the hospital, or as an attached unit, or part of the same campus. As Janos said, the point is not whether this person is going to the outpatient care center, but weather he is receiving regular car from a provider.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

Also it is very important to mention that gondozás is not necessarily done by doctors. But nurses or other health care professionals can be involved in gondozás.

It has nothing to do with real treatment.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

I am sure that terhesgondozás is a very familiar word for all of us. If somebody doesn't go to a "terhesgondozás", of course it doesn't mean that the pregnant woman is not in treatment/therapy. It means she doesn't go to those facilities which provide medical/health consultation (patient-doctor/nurse) for pregnant women.

Katalin Szilárd Nov 8, 2011:

@ Janos I remember we already had a linguistic debate about what outpatient care means in Hungary (2-3 years ago), maybe the word gondozás was not included in that. But in this context gondozás within the borders of Hungary means outpatient care. Usually these are held in consulting rooms (this time between the patient and the doctor) on the first level of a hospital. These are used for those patients who don't need hospital stay. Gondozás in this context means he/she doesn't visit the doctor/nurse at these outpatient care centers. It doesn't mean he doesn't get a treatment. Anybody can visit the doctor without getting a treatment. Treatment is needed only if the doctors prescribes it (if it is necessary).