| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Translation agency does not issue official POs Thread poster: Anna A. K.
|
|---|
Sadek_A 
Local time: 04:34
English to Arabic
+ ...
Wolfgang wrote:
A PO has to be sent before the starting the job, there are many agencies asking you NOT to start the job before having received the PO and therefore the job confirmation.
I do not ask for a PO with long-standing customers but most of them send it along anyway. But I have to admit that I have to insist with some agencies to get the PO before starting the job.
What if you start the job without a PO and written confirmation and the customer retracts from the job the day after?
All valid points.
However, others seem determined to open the door wide open for scammers 24/7.
| | | |
Sadek_A wrote:
However, others seem determined to open the door wide open for scammers 24/7.
Absolutely not. You are completely misinterpreting what we are saying. We know how to do due diligence, but due diligence has nothing to do with the format of the purchase order (email, PDF, paper, stamps, signatures …).
A printed PO full of stamps and signatures doesn't say anything about the client's will and ability to pay anyway, even when it's a genuine company.
We do our due diligence but want to avoid bureaucracy better left in the preceding century.
You could also ask the client to sign each PO before a notary for extra protection and that the notarised PO be sent on paper. Then you would ensure nothing ever got done.
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 04:34
English to Arabic
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
and if not, we obviously need to confirm the missing information, but there is no legal requirement in the Western world for printed evidence or evidence in a specific format.
So, more emailing, and more wasted time & effort?
How can a court judge in your favor when all you have is a number and an email address?
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
It's usually not that messy, but if it is, nothing prevents the translator from summing it up and getting that summary approved.
And, all that extra effort on translator's side is for what? To enable company not to provide a hard evidence?
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
What do you need the paper for? It doesn't make it better evidence. And it's not the only appropriate evidence. Western courts accept electronic evidence.
You won't be getting it as a hard-copy, of course. The print-out&scan is in case of company not having their equipped-PO electronically and adjustably ready.
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Oh, no, I've never heard of email spoofing and scamming in my 40-year career in IT and translation. It's completely new what you are telling me; I'm an amateur with no idea what I'm doing.
No, I'm being sarcastic because it's a ridiculous proposal. You can establish which company has sent an email if it's sent from the company's own domain, and you can check the header records in the email if you think it may be spoofed. You can also look up the domain in Whois and check company registers, online reputation and more. You don't need a formal PO to do any of this.
Would it be okay if I use sarcasm as well and say your 40 years ago POs were being delivered on ornamented stones?
Once again, you're laying all the hassle on top of the translator. Translator must check this, translator must check that! And, again, for what? So the company won't send a duly-issued PO?
Also, how is domain going to help you if you can't reach any info on the company?
How is it going to help if it's intricately designed to spell similar without you noticing a difference at first sight? Translinguist/Translingiust - Trans365724/Trans356724
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
You are completely misinterpreting what we are saying. A printed PO full of stamps and signatures doesn't say anything about the client's will and ability to pay anyway, even when it's a genuine company.
Same goes for PO No.-issuing companies, right?
A duly-equipped PO has two-fold objectives: 1. a hard evidence, 2. a hassle put on scammers.
| | | |
Wolfgang wrote:
What if you start the job without a PO and written confirmation and the customer retracts from the job the day after?
They pay you for the time you spent on it!
OP: You don't need a PO or a PO number. Any email saying "please translate" is enough.
| | |
|
|
|
Sadek_A
Local time: 04:34
English to Arabic
+ ...
| one more remark | Oct 24, 2022 |
Seeing the chaos the world is in today, and the plots going on everywhere, wouldn't the translator feel safe in the idea that they hold a hard, linkable evidence (beside email, domain, exchanges, and PO no.) if ever anti-money laundry measures stood between him/her and their payment(s)?
| | | |
Sadek_A wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
and if not, we obviously need to confirm the missing information, but there is no legal requirement in the Western world for printed evidence or evidence in a specific format. So, more emailing, and more wasted time & effort?
It's not a wasted effort to ensure that all the relevant conditions have been agreed.
Sadek_A wrote:
How can a court judge in your favor when all you have is a number and an email address?
The email address, provided that it's from a private domain that matches the company's web domain (without misspellings – I'm not that dumb), together with the headers of the email (which show which IP address and domain it was sent from and when, whether the domain SPF records for authenticity match, whether the email has been electronically signed and a lot more) together with the order information in the email (word count, rate, deadline, PO or reference number, etc.) provide better proof of authenticity than a piece of paper, which is not difficult to falsify. Judges do accept emails as evidence.
The way scammers write usually make it instantly detectable that something is not right.
Sadek_A wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
It's usually not that messy, but if it is, nothing prevents the translator from summing it up and getting that summary approved. And, all that extra effort on translator's side is for what? To enable company not to provide a hard evidence?
I have never had the need to do that, so it hasn't been a lot of effort.
Sadek_A wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
What do you need the paper for? It doesn't make it better evidence. And it's not the only appropriate evidence. Western courts accept electronic evidence. You won't be getting it as a hard-copy, of course. The print-out&scan is in case of company not having their equipped-PO electronically and adjustably ready.
As you say, it's nearly always electronic, and anyone can put together a PO. Furthermore, once you have saved the PO as a file, you have no evidence of where it came from. An email is much better in that aspect.
Sadek_A wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
You can establish which company has sent an email if it's sent from the company's own domain, and you can check the header records in the email if you think it may be spoofed. You can also look up the domain in Whois and check company registers, online reputation and more. You don't need a formal PO to do any of this. Once again, you're laying all the hassle on top of the translator. Translator must check this, translator must check that! And, again, for what? So the company won't send a duly-issued PO? Also, how is domain going to help you if you can't reach any info on the company?
A PO doesn't authenticate the company or its ability or willingness to pay, so we are at risk of non-payment if we don't do our due diligence.
If I can't find any information about the company, I don't go any further.
Sadek_A wrote:
How is it going to help if it's intricately designed to spell similar without you noticing a difference at first sight? Translinguist/Translingiust - Trans365724/Trans356724
I notice things like that, and a company calling itself Trans365724 or similar would look like a scam outfit, so such a request would go in the bin.
Sadek_A wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
You are completely misinterpreting what we are saying. A printed PO full of stamps and signatures doesn't say anything about the client's will and ability to pay anyway, even when it's a genuine company. Same goes for PO No.-issuing companies, right? A duly-equipped PO has two-fold objectives: 1. a hard evidence, 2. a hassle put on scammers. wouldn't the translator feel safe in the idea that they hold a hard, linkable evidence (beside email, domain, exchanges, and PO no.) if ever anti-money laundry measures stood between him/her and their payment(s)?
The evidence is not in the form but in recorded data telling us who sent it from where and when. Whether the order information is in the body or a PDF doesn't change that. An email contains a lot of hard evidence. Look in the headers (under Properties in Outlook).
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 04:34
English to Arabic
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Answers
You are welcome to be content with just an email or a PO number, but there are others who can't be so!
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Sadek I, @Sadek II, @Wolfgang, @Sadek III | Oct 24, 2022 |
Sadek_A wrote:
Wouldn't the translator feel safe in the idea that they hold a hard, linkable evidence... if ever [something bad happens w.r.t. payment]?
It is rare for translators to take their clients to court over non-payment. International translators simply have no recourse if it turns out that their clients acted in bad faith. This is why due diligence is far more important than having a paper trail.
Most of my clients are not in a location where I can easily ask a judge or legally binding arbitrator to weigh in on the matter, and even for those that are, the cost of such an action makes it prohibitive unless the amounts are very, very large (in which case, it would be my own fault for accepting such a large job from such an unknown client). And even then, you still have to prove your case. Don't forget, PDF files can be faked far easier than e-mails, and judges know this. It's much more difficult to fake e-mails (with headers). Besides, it would be very simple for me as translator to produce a falsified PO for many of my clients, so why should a judge just accept it if I produce such a file?
The main purpose of a PO is not to cover oneself in case of a court case or in case one needs to convince a debt collecting agency. The PO is a good-faith confirmation of the agreement between the translator and the client, but it's not meant to be legally watertight, because it is assumed that both translator and client trust each other. If you don't trust your clients enough to accept work without an official-looking PO, then you should not work for them unless they pay in advance.
Sadek_A wrote:
If you, Samuel, accept it after, it's your choice. But, every other person who asks for a PO, demands it beforehand. That's the whole point of the PO.
I think that if you read threads on ProZ.com about this topic, you'll find that it is not unusual for clients to issue POs afterwards.
The requirement for a legit PO is that it includes letterhead, stamp and authorized signature. And, in some cases, agency's license number and reference.
I get the impression that you're talking about the situation in a very specific country.
Many of my clients don't even have stationery with letterheads anymore (I know this because I recently asked for reference letters from many of my clients, preferably on a letterhead with a signature).
I have never seen a PO with a stamp or a signature. As for license numbers, well, whether an agency has a license number depends on whether the country that they're from have such things as license numbers for agencies. I have seen POs with company registration numbers and I have seen POs with tax reference numbers, but some of my clients include that information only in the service agreement and not on the PO itself.
Sadek_A wrote:
However, others seem determined to open the door wide open for scammers 24/7.
Neither an official-looking PO nor a proper paper trail (e.g. e-mails with headers) is going to prevent a scammer from scamming you. You must not rely on the PO to save you from scammers, but on due diligence.
Wolfgang wrote:
A PO has to be sent before the starting the job, there are many agencies asking you NOT to start the job before having received the PO and therefore the job confirmation.
This is a good point: but the point is that one must always make sure that confirmation had been given. This is why I specifically write "I look forward to receiving your confirmation" as the last step before starting the job, unless the client already said so specifically. Indeed, even if I do receive something that looks like a PO from a new client, I don't just assume that that is confirmation, unless the client specifically used words in an e-mail that indicates confirmation.
I do not ask for a PO with long-standing customers but most of them send it along anyway. But I have to admit that I have to insist with some agencies to get the PO before starting the job.
Different clients do things differently, and with different clients you have to take different approaches. I, too, have clients who send the PO number only after we agreed on the job (i.e. before I actually do the job), and then the PO number serves as confirmation, but other clients send the PO number at the very start of the negotiation, and the job is only confirmed when the client says "okay, confirmed".
[Edited at 2022-10-24 21:37 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 20:34
Japanese to English
+ ...
Issuing POs after the job has been completed can be a means of delaying payment. It serves the agency not the translator.
| | | | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 01:34
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| I think this is useful for the OP: | Oct 24, 2022 |
"What is a PO and why is it important in freelance translation?"
https://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/3716/1/What-is-a-PO-and-why-is-it-important-in-freelance-translation?
I have three clients only who send POs (which includes job number, word count, rate, delivery/start date, d... See more "What is a PO and why is it important in freelance translation?"
https://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/3716/1/What-is-a-PO-and-why-is-it-important-in-freelance-translation?
I have three clients only who send POs (which includes job number, word count, rate, delivery/start date, document name, etc.) in the body of the email message once the job is confirmed/assigned.
So far I have never had any problems and I hope it remains that way. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 04:34
English to Arabic
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote: Sadek_A wrote:
Wouldn't the translator feel safe in the idea that they hold a hard, linkable evidence... if ever [something bad happens w.r.t. payment]? It is rare for translators to take their clients to court over non-payment.
Samuel, your rephrasing here was invalid, the point was about current/future banking requirements, not about non payment!
Samuel Murray wrote:
PDF files can be faked far easier than e-mails
Who said anything about PDF files? Why does it have to be PDF? You keep insisting on it being a PDF, why?
Samuel Murray wrote:
it would be very simple for me as translator to produce a falsified PO for many of my clients
And, use it how?
Samuel Murray wrote:
The main purpose of a PO is not to cover oneself in case of a court case or in case one needs to convince a debt collecting agency.
Its main purpose is to give fair leverage to the translator that provides services on credit.
Samuel Murray wrote:
I have never seen a PO with a stamp or a signature.
I have, and still do.
Samuel Murray wrote:
license number...company registration number...tax reference number
Whatever have you!
Samuel Murray wrote:
on due diligence.
You keep repeating this expression, but at the same time you are rejecting - nay, fiercely discrediting - a substantial part of that very due diligence, aka PO.
| | |
|
|
|
Sadek_A
Local time: 04:34
English to Arabic
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote: 
Name of the website or online tool for that, please?
| | | | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 02:34
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
It seems some people almost exclusively work with one-time clients. In what other way can you explain that they need each and every time a formal PO? Half of my long-standing clients just provides me with a PO number, and that's just fine. It's not only a matter of trust, but also of the simple fact that there's no significant legal difference between a formal PO and an email stating a PO number, the number of words to be processed, the agreed price and the deadline. Not in Western Europe anyway... See more It seems some people almost exclusively work with one-time clients. In what other way can you explain that they need each and every time a formal PO? Half of my long-standing clients just provides me with a PO number, and that's just fine. It's not only a matter of trust, but also of the simple fact that there's no significant legal difference between a formal PO and an email stating a PO number, the number of words to be processed, the agreed price and the deadline. Not in Western Europe anyway.
If I'm offered a job by a new client, I will never accept a large amount of words. I will start with a small job, await the payment and then we'll see what we accept next. I certainly won't give a damn about the way POs are issued. This seems all so logical to me that I really wonder how certain people manage to survive in this industry. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Translation agency does not issue official POs | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
