| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| I think, if some clients see all the biased views of some people | Aug 3, 2012 |
on in this thread, they may really think this is not the right site to visit. I respond more or less accurately to all the posts, as accurate as I can in between certain very important jobs that I cannot ignore, and phone calls. Yes, Ari said something very similar to what I commented on. I don't really have the time to go through all the posts again, maybe later. Most of the people I know who have been living in the United States for most of their lives and are translators, report English as... See more on in this thread, they may really think this is not the right site to visit. I respond more or less accurately to all the posts, as accurate as I can in between certain very important jobs that I cannot ignore, and phone calls. Yes, Ari said something very similar to what I commented on. I don't really have the time to go through all the posts again, maybe later. Most of the people I know who have been living in the United States for most of their lives and are translators, report English as their second native language -- there is no lie in it at all. Some people commenting on linguistic things here are lawyers, engineers but not really linguists. Most are just picking on people, instead of proposing an amicable solution. I am still not convinced about somebody's abilities to translate from 10 languages; even the Kudos results don't convince me. I could probably guess Kudos answers from Norwegian and Danish; and Czech and Slovak just based on the similarities of the languages, although I could never translate anything serious from them.
As for Americanizing names, it is some kind of a fobia, Ty. Most people from Russia, especially because of the transliteration problem, have their legal names Anglicized, or Americanized, or whatever you prefer to call it. These are screen names -- but i could even Americanize my legal name more, if I wanted. I told you you can call me Lil, Liliana or Lilliane, as some people call me, so what is really the problem. Tyrron sounds Italian to me.
[Edited at 2012-08-03 09:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Revenons à nos moutons | Aug 3, 2012 |
Let us leave a particular frequent poster to this thread out of the debate. Clearly, that person has convinced him/herself (if not most of us) that he/she can legitimately claim English as his/her native language (or one of his/her native languages) and we're not going to persuade him/her otherwise - see my post some eons ago headed "Self Delusion". There are none so blind as those who WILL not see.
As Candide said, let us return to the subject.
What we need to do is persuade Proz to... See more Let us leave a particular frequent poster to this thread out of the debate. Clearly, that person has convinced him/herself (if not most of us) that he/she can legitimately claim English as his/her native language (or one of his/her native languages) and we're not going to persuade him/her otherwise - see my post some eons ago headed "Self Delusion". There are none so blind as those who WILL not see.
As Candide said, let us return to the subject.
What we need to do is persuade Proz to take action about the blatantly spurious "native language" claims on this site. At present, it seems less than eager to do so.
Still gripped,
Jenny
Edited at the request of Proz to comply with a site rule.
[Edited at 2012-08-03 09:34 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | As ever, we just don't know..... | Aug 3, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Therefore an EXCELLENT opportunity to rip it up and start again 
My initial response was to agree. But in truth, we have no idea what the situation is. I am reminded simultaneously of the recent suggestions for "full costing" (or somesuch), a long-ago post on here, and my old job (yikes!). We can't reasonably deal with any of this properly until we know exactly where we are (which requires system knowledge we don't have and, judging from site participation in this thread, we're never going to get), where we want to be and then, finally, how we want to get there.
IF the system has been somehow allocating random "N" languages to people, then yes, we have a problem. I, at least, will have to be sending a recent acquisition back to the high-horse dealership; I can't continue to bandy about the term "liars" for people making deliberate misrepresentations if I can't be sure it's deliberate. Or if they're even aware of it
Thus far however, it seems to involve languages people have been opting in and out of anyway... is that right?
I believe that whatever system was involved (hypothetically; I still think none will be) the idea was to announce it long and often so people could review their "N"s anyway. This bug is just another reason. Still needs to be fixed, mind.
Meanwhile, I would suggest that we have found ourselves a reasonable benchmark by which a hypothetical new system could be deemed to succeed or fail.
[Edited at 2012-08-03 09:53 GMT]
| | | | | Couldn't agree more. But things seem to march to a different beat here | Aug 3, 2012 |
Sarah Elizabeth Cree wrote: Regarding the repeated insistence from certain quarters that one's 'native language' is/can be that in which one received their university education, or, more specifically, 'the one in which one can write a dissertation': it would seem that this argument is confusing 'native language' with 'working language' and/or perhaps 'lingua franca'. In the Middle Ages, Provençal was a standard and literary language used at courts throughout parts of Europe - would an Italian troubadour writing professionally in Provençal have considered Occitan his native language? For that matter, since Latin was the language of religion and scholarship throughout the Middle Ages, would those using it have declared themselves native Latin speakers? Of course these questions are a bit unfair, because the issue at hand is a modern one, not a medieval one. My point is that, historically, people have worked at the very highest professional levels in languages such as Provençal and Latin without it being or needing to be the case that these languages were considered their 'native languages'. To put a finer point on it, a 'language that one has mastered for professional purposes' and a 'native language' are two separate, if often overlapping, categories. Taking the argument to the present day, what is this claim that there is a connection between being able to write a dissertation in, say, English, and being a native English speaker? In my seven years as a doctoral student at Yale University, and in my time as an MA student at the University of Chicago (a period overall comprising the years between 2001 and 2010), dozens of my colleagues were from non-English speaking countries. They had to take an English proficiency test in their first year of the program (here I am speaking of Yale), and had to write all of their seminar papers and their dissertation in English. Do my colleagues now claim to be native English speakers? No. Many of these colleagues are now professors at universities and colleges throughout the US. Do they now claim to be native English speakers? No. They are not, so they would not - but then again: it matters not. Professional competency in a language is not equal to being a native speaker of that language. And when a person's written output is so riddled (or even just peppered) with non-native mistakes and grammatical constructions that it is clear to native and non-native speakers alike that the writer is not native, however high their level of mastery, it boggles the mind that said person would persist in claiming to be a native! As so eloquently expressed by Ambrose Li here, where a declaration would be deceptive, the solution is to leave off the declaration. Let your work speak for itself, without resorting to dishonesty and deception.
I don't understand all the maneuvering people are attempting here to sell themselves as native speakers of a source language, English in particular of course. Is there some kind of stigma attached to not being an English native? As a professional linguist, is it really wise to write off/downplay one's abilities in one's native language (ie the one a person grew up in, was educated in, etc) to clear the way for proclaiming oneself an English native speaker? Surely one can get jobs without resorting to rewriting personal history? Why do so many people believe that English is easier to write than their own native language? I remain baffled. I'd also like to know what it is about Proz that makes people so desperate to convince the world they are English native speakers? Surely it's far more interesting to demonstrate excellence in one's actual native language and then state that one's written English is at native level. Native level isn't good enough? Why lie? Other languages aren't worth less, surely ..........
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| Testing is not the goal, it's the last resort | Aug 3, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: I put forward a suggestion from someone who is banned from posting on this forum and cannot therefore contribute to the discussion: "Why couldn't all English native speakers be invited to prove their level of English proficiency in the IELTS exam. Then this credential could be verified. http://www.examenglish.com/IELTS/IELTS_Band_Scores.html "
Lisa, I received the same eMail, and I wrote back to this person what I honestly felt: This is not about proficiency, but about being a "native speaker", which to me (at least) is something completely different:
"Being a native speaker has to do with where you were born, where you grew up, what culture you lived in and absorbed growing up, and what language you were immersed in during your formative years. Nothing more, nothing less."
There have been suggestions here regarding interviews, sample essays, peer reviews, etc. I see all of these as possible, but as a last resort to verify dubious claims. In my view, this suggestion that native speakers take some kind of long, formal (and costly) exam is ridiculous, and I can't help but question the motivation behind it. Additionally, although English may be the primary language affected by the issue we are discussing, it is not the only language, and this suggestion only addresses English.
I still believe that a questionnaire like the one I proposed here will go a long way toward not only getting people to own up to their true native language (self-evaluation), but will also provide much-needed information to anyone (Proz) reviewing such claims and a starting point in the event of accusations of falsehoods.
| | | | | This whole tread is based on the wrong premise | Aug 3, 2012 |
that somebody's L1, or a native language with the meaning of L1, is a perfect thing that makes for a good translator, automatically. Some were even convinced that everybody is wired by a certain age, more like four, and this will make the person a perfect, almost automatic translator into their L1. This premise is totally erroneous, so the rest of the thread has absolutely no value for the purposes of translation -- perhaps just for some language acquisition research. This thread was started bas... See more that somebody's L1, or a native language with the meaning of L1, is a perfect thing that makes for a good translator, automatically. Some were even convinced that everybody is wired by a certain age, more like four, and this will make the person a perfect, almost automatic translator into their L1. This premise is totally erroneous, so the rest of the thread has absolutely no value for the purposes of translation -- perhaps just for some language acquisition research. This thread was started based on somebody's personal interests to make their L1 the main asset in translation, in the view of other slightly questionable, such as education in a different language pair that the one offered. Some other people just want to prove that they are perfect translators into their L1 although they have lived in another country for years. Some really may be, but many won't.
Personally for me this thread does not make any sense anymore and I am not going to spend much more time on it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:07
Hebrew to English
I also don't understand what the point would be in making native speakers (or anyone) take IELTS exams.
I feel this is leading to a path of reasoning which just isn't very logical (let me get my pointed ears out)....
Just because there are native speakers who aren't proficient (the vast majority of which don't become translators anyway - they become plumbers in the Bronx apparently or somesuch), it doesn't mean that proficient non-natives can/should start calling themse... See more I also don't understand what the point would be in making native speakers (or anyone) take IELTS exams.
I feel this is leading to a path of reasoning which just isn't very logical (let me get my pointed ears out)....
Just because there are native speakers who aren't proficient (the vast majority of which don't become translators anyway - they become plumbers in the Bronx apparently or somesuch), it doesn't mean that proficient non-natives can/should start calling themselves "native speakers" just because they can pass an academic test (at a level which falls far short of "native" in my opinion).
...the IELTS exam doesn't really prove much anyway. I've "conversed" with people who have aced the IELTS and trust me, the conversation was still tough going and the level of English shocking (considering they passed the IELTS with flying colours).
In good conscience I could not support any move that would declare someone as "native" based on the fact they passed the IELTS.
[Edited at 2012-08-03 10:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You can be a Harvard professor but you could not declare English as your second native language | Aug 3, 2012 |
Give me a break. This is absolutely ridiculous, unless you teach specifically a foreign language, but not if you are a philosophy professor at one of the greatest institutions. Some perhaps don't -- because they don't want to, but they could. People from certain countries would hardly ever declare English as their second native language, even if they had lived in those countries for 5/4 of their lives and wrote like Byron. There are also some visiting lectures at various institutions who just st... See more Give me a break. This is absolutely ridiculous, unless you teach specifically a foreign language, but not if you are a philosophy professor at one of the greatest institutions. Some perhaps don't -- because they don't want to, but they could. People from certain countries would hardly ever declare English as their second native language, even if they had lived in those countries for 5/4 of their lives and wrote like Byron. There are also some visiting lectures at various institutions who just stay in the United States for a few years. But this is it. I don't really have more time.
[Edited at 2012-08-03 12:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall wrote:
In good conscience I could not support any move that would declare someone as "native" based on the fact they passed the IELTS.
[Edited at 2012-08-03 10:37 GMT]
And as far as non-natives are concerned:
It would be like trying to make an "native" egg out of a "non-native" chicken ...
B
[Edited at 2012-08-03 18:23 GMT]
| | | | | Do you suggest genetic tests, Bernhard | Aug 3, 2012 |
Eggs can be only checked for genes, not for linguistic performance. Also eggs don't have feelings, or identity issues.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:07
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I think that's a good decision | Aug 3, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Personally for me this thread does not make any sense anymore and I am not going to spend much more time on it.
Win-win all-round.
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It might also be illegal if you discriminate (intentionally or unintentionally) between brown and white eggs (at least in the US).
LilianBoland wrote:
Eggs can be only checked for genes, not for linguistic performance. Also eggs don't have feelings, or identity issues.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:07
Hebrew to English
| Searching for the non-existent | Aug 3, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Some were even convinced that everybody is wired by a certain age, more like four, and this will make the person a perfect, almost automatic translator into their L1. This premise is totally erroneous, so the rest of the thread has absolutely no value for the purposes of translation
I would be delighted if you could point me to the post(s) in this thread where this is claimed....
[Edited at 2012-08-03 17:45 GMT]
| | | | | Yes, all of this is basically illegal | Aug 3, 2012 |
This is my point. Answer to Sibsab's post.
Sorry about some typos and stylistic mistakes, but I can hardly see the text when it is highlighted in green or grey, and I don't want to cause trouble having a few posts re-vetted. Yes, any kind of discrimination is absolutely illegal and unethical.
[Edited at 2012-08-03 17:52 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-08-03 18:05 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:07
Hebrew to English
| Fingers crossed! | Aug 3, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Personally for me this thread does not make any sense anymore and I am not going to spend much more time on it.
Do you promise?
[Edited at 2012-08-03 17:47 GMT]
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